Ketosis and Kidneys?

[NanCat]

I just got into yet another annoying argument with a friend (who happens to be a medical professional *sigh*) who insisted that Atkins is unhealthy, and me insisting that I know my body, and 15 years of struggling with my weight, I've learned it's the only way I can STAY healthy.

His main argument, which I had no information to address either way, is that ketosis is dangerous for kidneys.

So I searched here, and I googled it, and I found various articles about ketosis being dangerous for kidneys... but I'm hoping there are still other articles out there I haven't seen yet that maybe call such arguments into question??

Anyone? Help?

[MACXXX]

Google Dr. Eades blog. This sounds like another of what he calls vampire myths regarding low carb. If this were true all the Inuit would have died of kidney failure.

[NanCat]

Thanks for the lead. Here's the email I just sent him.

I hate arguing about my diet. With a vegan ex-boyfriend, no less. Ugh.

What I sent him:

__________

Re. the "ketosis is bad for kidneys" myth... though I don't have the time, I knew I'd seen it debunked before and here's one such site that debunks it. If you do have peer reviewed medical articles that prove a link between ketosis and kidney failure, please do provide me links or citations, though, I'd be happy to read them with an open mind. Also keep in mind, though, that the link between diabetes and kidney failure is what's indisputable, and in my case, and this is MY body we're talking about after all, I went from being pre-diabetic to having safe blood sugar levels (and much lower cholesterol and blood pressure) when I went on Atkins. It works for me, and nothing else has. Being glucose-intolerant, I'd rather not mess around with my blood sugar levels by consuming high levels of carbs again, risking diabetes, just because some people claim to be worried about my kidneys and think that my diet somehow threatens my kidneys but have no peer-reviewed studies to back up the argument.

From Rebuttal to the PCRM | The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D.
:

Impaired Renal Function


Fear of kidney damage has long been the bugaboo of people following low-carbohydrate diets. It’s doubtful that anyone pursuing a low-carbohydrate diet for any length of time hasn’t been told at least once that his or her kidneys are in danger. Here again the PCRM doesn’t disappoint; the group is right there leading the chorus. And PCRM doesn’t beat around the bush: “Highprotein diets are associated with reduced kidney function,” so says its report. No equivocation there. But once again PCRM has missed the boat. If we are to believe PCRM, we had better leave the buns on our burgers and eat every fry in the box to protect our kidneys. Studies from around the world have shown that the amount of protein contained in the modified version of the low-carbohydrate diet does not harm the kidneys.


Even studies in patients with diabetic kidney disease show they will harm their kidneys more by increasing their carbohydrate intake and running up their blood sugars than they do by increasing their protein intake. In the late 1980s a group did an extensive study in Israel comparing the kidney function of people of all ages who ate a high meat diet with the kidney function of those on a vegetarian diet. The study showed that although both groups suffered a slight reduction in kidney function with age (it’s a sad fact of life—as we age function of just about everything including the kidneys decreases) the degree of loss of function was indistinguishable between the groups. Another recent study of kidney disease in diabetics performed at the University of California in San Francisco demonstrated that caloric reduction was a more potent force in protecting damaged kidneys than restriction of dietary protein. In fact, this study used a low-carbohydrate diet to restrict the calories. The whole idea that protein in the amounts eaten in modified low-carbohydrate diets damages kidneys is a vampire myth that refuses to die no matter how many stakes have been driven through its heart by a multitude of medical studies.


One last point on this subject, an admittedly anecdotal one, but illustrative. The one group of people who eat more protein than any other single group is serious body builders. These people eat anywhere from three times to eight times the amount of protein recommended in any lowcarb diet, and do so for long periods of time. What does this do to their kidneys? It must not do much because it’s never been reported in the medical literature. If the PCRM were correct about protein damaging kidneys there would be lines of body builders queuing up outside of dialysis centers all over the world.

[sugarless4life]

Perhaps you could ask him if obesity is healthy for kidneys and other body parts?

Betty

[mamabear6]

I've had blood work done recently, and a few months back. Both times my doctor told me the "numbers for my kidneys was a little high, but nothing to worry about". I don't know what the heck that means but he's a good doctor so I took his word for it! Lol I wouldn't worry about what people say too much, but I guess it's a good thing to research if you're concerned.

[NanCat]

Originally Posted by sugarless4life

Perhaps you could ask him if obesity is healthy for kidneys and other body parts?

Betty

I don't think that argument would work with him because he's a fitness FREAK and would just chastise me for not riding my bike 2-3 hours a day like he does.... also, he's an ex-boyfriend, my high school sweetheart, and he hasn't seen me in 10 years, and I"m not quite ready to tell him just how obese I got since he last saw me *grin*

[NanCat]

PS to the last post --- not that there's anything wrong with being a fitness freak, because you're the kind of fitness freak that we shoudl all aspire to be!

But in his case, he's already scoffing at my almost-daily elliptical workouts that I love so much, telling me I should be taking spin classes and working out for hours every day, not just 30 minutes :P

[theredhead]

I think I'd tell him to jump in the lake! LOL!

You must do what you know is best for you, and don't let his opinions sway you from it. You shouldn't have to defend your lifestyle to him. Don't let him have power over you.

[Houston Heather]

I wouldn't even BOTHER.

[Cuelgirl]

Originally Posted by Houston Heather

I wouldn't even BOTHER.

yeah... what she said!

[NanCat]

Yeah, now I just have to figure out how to end the dialogue with him now that I've written that long response defending Atkins and he's sure to want to strong out the debate...

I guess I'll just tell him that while I'm happy to read any peer reviewed articles on the subject he can find, the discussion is over...

[sugarless4life]

Yeah, my mother used to say "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still ...."

Betty

[NanCat]

Grrrrrrr. He's really making me mad now. This whole conversation could end our just-resumed-after-ten-years friendship just as it was gelling again.

Here's his response, and my response to his response, and that BETTER be the end of it:
____________

Him:

As to the kidneys and such. Yesm Diabetes is very bad, but for the most part with Type II diabetes, if the weight is close to a normal level and you exercise regularly, then that often, not always the blood glucose levels disappear. The thing about the ketones is documented to cause acidosis. Plus they give you fruity breath, hmm tasty kisses, LOL. Anyways ketones if in such excess as to be found in the urine means that it is too much for the body and kidneys to handle. It is a cummulative effect. Now, your article person below half-assed referenced the debunking without citing the sources and etc... But the no carb diet is bad long term. Now that doesn't mean that of you modify it, it won't be bad for you. Double negative, gotta love those. plus there are lots of different carbs. Everything from highly modified simple sugars high fructose corn syrup, to very long chain complex carbs, ie whole grains etc... I am still a vegetarian and I primarily eat complex carbs and whole grains. So, what I would recommend, if I was on a high protein low carb diet, is to occasionally get the ketones checked in my urine. I wasn't trying to tell you to not continue your diet, rather to make sure you are being followed by a physician. Plus I don't know if you cook for yourself or if you eat out a lot. I just want you to be around for a few more years;-)))

___________

Me:

Like I said, I know my body and what works for this. I really don't want a prolonged debate about a diet that works well for me. My doctors love what Atkins is doing for me, because it's caused my blood sugar, cholesterol, and blood pressure to drop, along with my weight. I've been doing this for five years and know what I'm doing and monitor my health very closely... please don't assume otherwise. If you have *peer reviewed studies* you can point to showing that ketosis is bad for kidneys, I'd love to read them. Otherwise, let's move on.

[MACXXX]

He is confusing ketoacidosis in diabetics with ketosis.

And no diabetes does NOT just disappear when you lose weight. Read any of the blog posts in Diabetes Update by Blood Sugar 101 and you find this is just no necessarily true.

BTW, this person is an idiot who knows not of where he speaks.

[sugarless4life]

Well first of all, Atkins is not a HIGH PROTEIN low carb diet.

Its a high fat, controlled carbohydrate LIFESTYLE.

Betty

[LowCarbSarahTryin!]

Originally Posted by mamabear6

I've had blood work done recently, and a few months back. Both times my doctor told me the "numbers for my kidneys was a little high, but nothing to worry about". I don't know what the heck that means but he's a good doctor so I took his word for it! Lol I wouldn't worry about what people say too much, but I guess it's a good thing to research if you're concerned.

High BUN, creatinine, albumin, etc. can all be caused by kidney failure... or higher-protein diet, or dehydration. So when kidney results are abnormal while on a low carb diet, it certainly doesn't indicate kidney failure. Dehydration or the protein rich diet are FAR more likely to cause these abnormal results.

[Moogie303]

Originally Posted by MACXXX

He is confusing ketoacidosis in diabetics with ketosis.

My weight-loss doctor has a page in her booklet that explains the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis and also states that ketosis is not in any way harmful to the body.

Angie

[NanCat]

Originally Posted by Moogie303

My weight-loss doctor has a page in her booklet that explains the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis and also states that ketosis is not in any way harmful to the body.

Angie

I want that booklet!!

[NanCat]

Yay! His last email began:

Subjects are dropped. It is just the nurse in me I hope you can forgive me.

Our friendship can survive this bloody battle. Heh.

[CramerNH]

Originally Posted by NanCat

Yay! His last email began:

Subjects are dropped. It is just the nurse in me I hope you can forgive me.

Our friendship can survive this bloody battle. Heh.

Well, the nurse in this person needs to back off because that could be construed as practicing outside the boundaries of a Nurse... LOL.. sorry I had to say that...

You know - as far as Im concerned, if my doctor APPROVED the plan Im on in the FIRST place, its NO ones business telling me that I shouldnt be doing it to begin with.... friend or no friend... thats just the way I feel about it... if they cant support me in the fact that a particular plan is working for my particular situation, then I dont need that kind of person in my life if they continue to be so argumentative and negative...

My Dermatologist, Allergist and Physician-Assistant ALL approved Paleo for me with my current conditions and the fact that I cant stomach certain foods anymore... GEEE...hmmmm, ummmm, thats alot of diagnosing people who know me pretty darn good! LOL

Keep your chin up and enjoy YOUR 30 minutes of "Me-Time"...

[NanCat]

Thanks Cramer

I'll be working those elliptical steps extra hard tomorrow just because

& thanks everyone else who chimed in. Combine my tendency to submit to medical profs and my history of letting him dominate discussions in our last relationship 10 years ago, that one was a tough one for me to stand firm in, and it helped having the support here

This place rocks.

[fireflyfaster]

Originally Posted by NanCat

letting him dominate discussions in our last relationship 10 years ago

Mmmhmmm, I suspected as much. There's a reason you broke up with him -- you got tired of smiling and nodding all the time. (Do I sound like the voice of experience?)

[NanCat]

Originally Posted by fireflyfaster

Mmmhmmm, I suspected as much. There's a reason you broke up with him -- you got tired of smiling and nodding all the time. (Do I sound like the voice of experience?)

Actually he dumped me and broke my heart back in the day... he was the one that got away...

... but now I don't want him back

[Melrose]

Originally Posted by MACXXX

He is confusing ketoacidosis in diabetics with ketosis.

And no diabetes does NOT just disappear when you lose weight. Read any of the blog posts in Diabetes Update by Blood Sugar 101 and you find this is just no necessarily true.

BTW, this person is an idiot who knows not of where he speaks.

I may have to disagree with this. My sister in law was over 400 lbs, type 2, and she had gastric bypass surgery and 11 years later, she is still diabetic free. Her diabetes "disappeared" within the first few months after surgery.

My brother in law (brother to the sister above), well over 350 lbs, type 2 diabetic, had gastric bypas surgery, and again, 9 years later, diabetic free.

[DivineHealth]

It's really hard to argue with a "professional" especially when they are fit and we are not. We lose all credibility from the gitgo.