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Old 04-19-2009, 08:48 AM   #1
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Does anyone have low cortisol?

I'm just looking for someone to commiserate with about dealing with hypoglycemia because of adrenal problems & LC.

I'm in my first week of induction & had to go back on low dose hydrocortisone. But transitioned to Isocort. Feeling ok but not quite getting the stable sugar feeling with steroids. Blood sugar has been ok - but there are times I feel like I'm low when I'm not (dizzy). That may just be from coming off steroids abruptly.

Also the night time sweats from dips are driving me nuts.

Actually anyone who's on isocort I'd love to hear experiences! I don't have adrenal fatigue per se. We really don't know the cause. I have a pituitary tumor, but my endoc actually thinks it's my adrenals. My mother was just diagnosed with an adrenal tumor, so I think it may even be Men2 (a heriditary multiple endocrine disorder). I still have to inform my dr. of that.

Thanks!
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Old 04-19-2009, 04:39 PM   #2
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i have very low cortisol but am just on licorice for now. i just found out on wednesday so i'm starting the licorice and then will probably add in some sort of cortisol when i talk to my MD doc next time. i thought about adding in isocort myself, but will probably wait rather than self-medicating.

have you had a 24-hour adrenal test done? i'm not much help since i am new to this myself and am interested in what others might have to say.
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Old 04-19-2009, 05:02 PM   #3
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I take Cortef and it's changed my life.
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Old 04-19-2009, 06:33 PM   #4
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are you also hypo or do you just have low cortisol?
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meb2004 View Post
i have very low cortisol but am just on licorice for now. i just found out on wednesday so i'm starting the licorice and then will probably add in some sort of cortisol when i talk to my MD doc next time. i thought about adding in isocort myself, but will probably wait rather than self-medicating.

have you had a 24-hour adrenal test done? i'm not much help since i am new to this myself and am interested in what others might have to say.
Hey Meb,

Do you know your cortisol levels? Just a prewarning about the isocort. The first time I took it, before I was put on steroids, that's actually when all hell broke loose. I took a tiny dose (like a small sliver of a pellet) because I was so nervous about taking it. I think when you initially take it your acth drops. So take a couple pellets the first time & don't do what I did. This time though when I took it I didn't have any problems.

I was too afraid to take regular licorice. I had heard some neg. s/e's from it. I bought deglycerized (sp?) thinking that would help, but found out it's only good for killing the stomach bug that causes ulcers, and for healing leaky gut. So I'm still taking it anyway because I was told I had leaky gut anyway.

Do you mean the dexamethasone suppression test? I haven't had that done. I went on hydrocortisone immediately after a pretty bad addison crisis. So my dr. told me I need to be off steroids to do the test, and I was on them for 3 mos. & haven't seen her since then. I'm back on them now, but trying to get by mostly with Isocort. I have been doing multiple 24 hr. urine tests over the years, and the fasting cortisol. My urine tests were normal though. The red flag one was a fasting cortisol of 3.7 - I wasn't even having symptoms then.

It's sort of hard to treat, because it's intermittent. Sometimes I need steroids, sometimes I don't. I have to go on symptoms.

I'm going for a 2nd MRI in May to see if the pituitary tumor has grown. If it has, it 'may' be the cause. But I've only had one MRI, so nothing to compare.

ETA: Yes I'm hypo. Though I've had highs & lows, but the theme since last Oct. has been hypo.

Last edited by Snowangel11; 04-19-2009 at 07:05 PM..
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:07 PM   #6
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I take Cortef and it's changed my life.
Hi emily,

I take Hydrocortisone. I think they're the same thing?? I just didn't want to become dependent on it and wanted to see if I could heal my adrenals (if that's what it is) with the isocort. Because coming off steroids is so miserable when being on it awhile, I didn't want to go thru that again.
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:08 PM   #7
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Meb,

Are you still low carbing now? How are you dealing with that & low blood sugar?
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Old 04-20-2009, 06:10 AM   #8
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I have done the 24-hour saliva test for cortisol. Here are my results:

Morning: 9
Noon: 1
Afternoon: <1
Evening: <1

My ND put me on licorice plus by metagenics. I think it is stronger than the stuff you'd get in the store. When I talk to my MD he will probably put me on hydrocortisone though since my levels are so low, probably too low for the licorice to do much good.

I keep my diet mostly low-carb and whole foods at least. My blood sugar isn't low I don't think, I think I am insulin resistant though, I need to recheck my labs though on this.
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Old 04-20-2009, 06:40 AM   #9
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I have adrenal fatigue but am only taking one supplement that is targeting it. It is ground up pigs adrenals. I have a whole list of other supplements I am taking, but just the one for adrenals. My doctor is a DO (but also an MD so I get the best of both worlds!!) and prefers the natural, not prescriptive, route. I have low blood pressure and tried the licorice as it was suggested in the book she tell me I get. The licorice did nothing for me. I tried the dose on the bottle and found it did not a thing. So I just took it til I had none left in the bottle. I don't have insulin resistance as my insulin was really low on the blood work I had done, but my glucose is really high. She fears I might turn diabetic so I have to follow the glycemic load diet, or at least I was told to follow it! I still prefer Atkins. What I was told is that this is 70% nutrition so you have to clean up your diet. The other 30% I guess is supplements. Cut out all the "stimulating" foods that you are consuming. Yeah, I am still trying to figure that one out! However, I have gone off all caffeine. I am trying to follow the food "plan" in the book called "Adrenal Fatigue". It tells you what to eat and when to eat it. I can type it for you here if you want. Basically, they want you eating all the time!!! I have never felt fuller. And my weight is hanging on--no gain or loss from this. That should help with the blood sugar issues and not stress your body any further. My doctor has me on a whole list of supplements but the one that is specifically for my blood sugar (to stabilize the levels) is chromium picolinate. I take 2 caps with each meal. Btw, my adrenal issues were called by my doc without any kind of testing. She suspected it above the thyroid problems I thought they were. I just told her my symptoms and she suspected adrenals. But through hair analysis (way cheaper, and easier, than saliva testing) it was confirmed. I wish you well.
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Old 04-20-2009, 06:54 AM   #10
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I did some reading on adrenal fatigue and it seemed to be that you should slowly increase your hydrocortisone use up to your optimal levels and then stay there until your adrenals have had time to heal and then slowly wean yourself off. You aren't supposed to skip even a SINGLE dose as this can cause you to crash. If you are bad about remembering to take it I think you can get an Rx for Medrol which has a longer half-life and therefore needs to be taken less frequently.

Hydrocortone, Hydrocortisone, Cortef, and Isocort are all hydrocortisone. Isocort is the only over-the-counter though. Medrol is also hydrocortisone, but somehow it is a little different, not sure on all the specifics.

dawn, adrenal fatigue can also be caused by extremely stressful situations where after your adrenals have not had time to heal. So in that case diet alone wouldn't be able to solve the problem. I'm a HUGE believer in using food to heal, but after all this reading I think food alone might not be able to do it for adrenal fatigue. Well, actually food can heal for minor adrenal fatigue but I haven't read anything about it healing people with fatigue as severe as mine.

I will be on the licorice for another week and a half and if this kind seems to help me I'll let you guys know. I'm not very optimistic though as I have seen zero energy level increase since I started it 5 days ago.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:33 AM   #11
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My doctor always is tweaking my supplements as she thinks I need more things with every new test I get!! But I am putting my trust in her as I don't want to go at this alone. I am following her suggestions and she is very open to listening to me. Like I said earlier, she diagnosed me based on symptoms alone! Remember, I have not had the saliva test yet. I want to have it done as my doc believes that my sex hormones are not balanced. But one thing at a time, I have maxed out my health care account already!! She also thinks my thyroid is not working too well. Too many things going on at once for me. This is when it gets so overwhelming for me. While the licorice did nothing for me I am actually feeling better on the adrenal supplement she gave me at the last visit. I don't know if it is a placebo effect or not, but I will take it!! So we will see how I get on with what she has prescribed for me. I am so glad that others who are having this problem are chiming in so we can see what others are going through. I hate that we all feel so lousy, don't get me wrong. While I hate that I don't have energy and don't want to do squat all day I am glad I can get the basics done. My kids all have clean clothes and we eat! All I can say is thank god I don't work. It would just add to my stress!!

Snow, my doctor says that the pituitary and the thyroid and the adrenals all work together. She drew me a chart and tried to explain it but I am so not technical. BUT, I would say that your pituitary tumor IS affecting your adrenals. I am surprised your doctor wouldn't know that!! I am sorry to hear you are going through all this. Keep us updated.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:50 AM   #12
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that's great that the new supplement seems to be working. i think if you have thyroid problems you can't really get optimized on those meds until your adrenals are under control as your cells won't be able to use the thyroid medication. So it is good to get adrenals taken care of first.
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:56 AM   #13
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Hi ladies,

*Sorry this is so loooong*

You don't know how less alone I feel after reading your posts. I've written on other boards I belong to, and have not been able to connect with people who are experiencing the same thing.

I just wanted to ask if you suffer the same types of symptoms. For me this
has affected my whole life for the past 4 years. I can't work right now, I'm afraid to drive, and I can't do the physical activities I use to. Even dragging out the garbage is like climbing mt. everest. I had the same "bout" of symptoms about 12 years ago, but did not realize exactly what was going on. Cutting out caffeine & sugar is what healed me within 3 weeks. This time that wasn't enough. Back in 2008 alone, I actually had about 42 doctor visits alone with various dr.'s - rheum., infectious disease, different endoc's. I had inflammatory markers in my blood (high crp, sed rate & wbc), but yet no sign of an autoimmune disease. Little did I know that ALL my symptoms were related to cortisol. Even now, my endoc doesn't put all the pieces together. But it was my old acupuncturist who did - I just didn't believe her until recently.

Anyway, as for symptoms related to my cortisol, do you have:

Overwhelming depression when first waking in the morning (which goes away within an hour)
Joint pain (this has been on & off since my 20s)
Muscular pain
Sweating upon exertion
Loss of interest in daily activities (really have to push myself & not interested in socializing - this goes away when I'm thin! Nothing to do with mental attitude, it's all the hormone & blood sugar issues that affect your mood!)
Low testosterone/DHEA (I use to have high until my cortisol dropped)
When physically or emotionally stressed - swelling of soft tissues - for instance my hands will blow up & get mottled if my cortisol is dropping.
Red Flushed face, back of hands - like blood is pooled there.
Finding the simpliest things overwhelming.
Internal shaking (like when you've had the worst scare in your life).
Memory problems & visual problems (I've pinpointed this to hypoglycemia)
Urgent need to sleep during day (this hasn't happened to me since I was on the last course of steroids last time)

The low blood pressure is very telling too. Cortisol maintains your blood sugar & blood pressure as well as anti-diuretic hormone. When I had my addison's crisis, I was shaking, I almost passed out, I lost all muscle control & couldn't even lift up a glass, and once I got some salt/sugar in me, I went to the bathroom like 7 times in a half hour. Urinary frequency is one of the 'signs'. My BP was very low until I got on steroids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnyama View Post
snow

I have adrenal fatigue but am only taking one supplement that is targeting it. It is ground up pigs adrenals. I have a whole list of other supplements I am taking, but just the one for adrenals. My doctor is a DO (but also an MD so I get the best of both worlds!!) and prefers the natural, not prescriptive, route. I have low blood pressure and tried the licorice as it was suggested in the book she tell me I get. The licorice did nothing for me. I tried the dose on the bottle and found it did not a thing. So I just took it til I had none left in the bottle. I don't have insulin resistance as my insulin was really low on the blood work I had done, but my glucose is really high. She fears I might turn diabetic so I have to follow the glycemic load diet, or at least I was told to follow it! I still prefer Atkins. What I was told is that this is 70% nutrition so you have to clean up your diet. The other 30% I guess is supplements. Cut out all the "stimulating" foods that you are consuming. Yeah, I am still trying to figure that one out! However, I have gone off all caffeine. I am trying to follow the food "plan" in the book called "Adrenal Fatigue". It tells you what to eat and when to eat it. I can type it for you here if you want. Basically, they want you eating all the time!!! I have never felt fuller. And my weight is hanging on--no gain or loss from this. That should help with the blood sugar issues and not stress your body any further. My doctor has me on a whole list of supplements but the one that is specifically for my blood sugar (to stabilize the levels) is chromium picolinate. I take 2 caps with each meal. Btw, my adrenal issues were called by my doc without any kind of testing. She suspected it above the thyroid problems I thought they were. I just told her my symptoms and she suspected adrenals. But through hair analysis (way cheaper, and easier, than saliva testing) it was confirmed. I wish you well.
Dawn, I had read that licorice can be too stimulating to the adrenals. I took that as it may be like the equivalent of caffeine and drain it rather than heal it. The adrenal supplement from pigs adrenal is much like Isocort - which is ground up sheep adrenal. As for the diet, before this bout of adrenal problems, I was actually on a whole foods diet for about 5 mos. It was low glycemic and lots of veg/fruit. I think I overdid it on the potassium, and too much potassium is bad for the adrenals. For me losing weight is essential to feeling emotionally & mentally better - and I can't seem to lose on anything but Atkins. I agree with meb that if there is a "mechanical" problem with the adrenals, pituitary, (i.e. tumors or hyperplasia) supplements may just not be enough. Thyroid problems are often connected to other endocrine imbalances. I've heard that it's best to address adrenal before thyroid.
And it's funny, I've been reading other posts about chromium pic - but my endoc. made a huge fuss over getting a multi without chromium, as it my cause more blood sugar issues. I don't know if I believe her. She's a great lady, but she's been off the mark about supplements in general.

Also as to the high/low blood sugar issue. I started out with slightly high fasting glucose. It took me a long time to realize that I was actually having nightime hypoglycemia. Which causes your liver to dump a bunch of sugar into you system to get your through the night. Google "liver dump" or "dawn phenomenom" (sp?) The result is: high fasting sugar in the morning. Your liver gets stressed & "stagnated" as a result. That is one of the reasons for morning depression too. And if you have a stressed liver from hypoglycemia, that just makes it inefficient with dealing with sugar. It's a vicious cycle.
The thing is are our doctors on board with this stuff?? No!!! So they tell us it's prediabetes, and we're heading for diabetes. When it has nothing to do with diabetes. I know, my doctor believes the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meb2004
I did some reading on adrenal fatigue and it seemed to be that you should slowly increase your hydrocortisone use up to your optimal levels and then stay there until your adrenals have had time to heal and then slowly wean yourself off. You aren't supposed to skip even a SINGLE dose as this can cause you to crash. If you are bad about remembering to take it I think you can get an Rx for Medrol which has a longer half-life and therefore needs to be taken less frequently.

Hydrocortone, Hydrocortisone, Cortef, and Isocort are all hydrocortisone. Isocort is the only over-the-counter though. Medrol is also hydrocortisone, but somehow it is a little different, not sure on all the specifics.

dawn, adrenal fatigue can also be caused by extremely stressful situations where after your adrenals have not had time to heal. So in that case diet alone wouldn't be able to solve the problem. I'm a HUGE believer in using food to heal, but after all this reading I think food alone might not be able to do it for adrenal fatigue. Well, actually food can heal for minor adrenal fatigue but I haven't read anything about it healing people with fatigue as severe as mine.

I will be on the licorice for another week and a half and if this kind seems to help me I'll let you guys know. I'm not very optimistic though as I have seen zero energy level increase since I started it 5 days ago.
The thing about medrol, prednisone, & the longer acting steroids, vs. hydrocortisone is that you don't want a long acting steroid in your system. Our real cortisol goes up & down all day. If you have a steady supply of cortisol thru your system, that puts you at risk for osteoporosis & arterial plaque. Replacement Cortisone (hydrocortisone aka cortisone and I believe Cortef) mimics our own cortisol unlike the synthetic steroids (cortisone is natural). When we are asleep you actually build bone. The synthetics which have a longer half life actually prevent this, because they are still in your system when you're asleep. This can also lead to insomnia.

I hope the licorice helps, but like you said, sometimes it just isn't enough. If it's more than adrenal fatigue/exhaustion, than rx cortisone may be a necessity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnyama View Post

Meb, My doctor always is tweaking my supplements as she thinks I need more things with every new test I get!! But I am putting my trust in her as I don't want to go at this alone. I am following her suggestions and she is very open to listening to me. Like I said earlier, she diagnosed me based on symptoms alone! Remember, I have not had the saliva test yet. I want to have it done as my doc believes that my sex hormones are not balanced. But one thing at a time, I have maxed out my health care account already!! She also thinks my thyroid is not working too well. Too many things going on at once for me. This is when it gets so overwhelming for me. While the licorice did nothing for me I am actually feeling better on the adrenal supplement she gave me at the last visit. I don't know if it is a placebo effect or not, but I will take it!! So we will see how I get on with what she has prescribed for me. I am so glad that others who are having this problem are chiming in so we can see what others are going through. I hate that we all feel so lousy, don't get me wrong. While I hate that I don't have energy and don't want to do squat all day I am glad I can get the basics done. My kids all have clean clothes and we eat! All I can say is thank god I don't work. It would just add to my stress!!

Snow, my doctor says that the pituitary and the thyroid and the adrenals all work together. She drew me a chart and tried to explain it but I am so not technical. BUT, I would say that your pituitary tumor IS affecting your adrenals. I am surprised your doctor wouldn't know that!! I am sorry to hear you are going through all this. Keep us updated.
Dawn,
So far my thryoid has been fine. THe thing about my pituitary is that I went to one of the top pituitary neurosurgeons in NYC (actually he's in the top 10 of the U.S.). I was expecting to go there & just schedule myself to get this thing out. He told me it's too small to have affected anything. It's not pressing on my pituitary. He said I haven't shown him proof it's a hormonally active tumor (cushings, acromegoly, etc). He told me to start from square one & get ALL the tests. I still have 2 more tests to do. I just haven't had the ENERGY to go to another dr! I have dr BURNOUT! lol He did tell me it's possible it's a cyst (umm or a clot!!). If it were a cyst, it could have been bigger & dmg'd part of my pituitary and then the cyst could have shrunk - which the pituitary sends signals to the adrenals. I'll tell you, I am so drained I wish I had a doctor as an advocate. Unfortunately, I've lost all faith in doctors. Even my endoc who I love, has not been able to put 2+2 together to connect my joint pain with my cortisol. This is common knowledge that cortisol is your anti-inflammatory hormone. THis is accepted & proven in western medicine. How could she not realize that my high inflammatory markers are connected to this too!? I go in & try to explain all this, and all I get are the deer stuck in a headlight look.

Anyway, because of the size of my tumor, she personally believes it's actually my adrenals. And I'm starting to believe she is right. I have been having pain below my rib, and this happens to be (from what I've googled so far) the location of the adrenals. My mother was also recently diagnosed with an adrenal tumor & my aunt with possibly hyperparathyroidism. There is a genetic endocrine disorder called Men2 that causes multiple endocrine problems & often multiple family members will have endocrine issues. I did have a CT scan of my adrenals (actually from my neck to my pelvis) & they couldn't find anything. But I've read that CT scans don't always pick up small tumors. So, I'm going to ask for an ultrasound. And the MEN2 test.

Also some other things from my own experience...Drinking salt water in the morning (and if necessary throughout the day) will help your adrenals. I haven't been consistent lately. If you're drinking lots of water throughout the day, you are diluting your sodium levels, which will make things worse. If you have problems with anti-diuretic hormone (can't remember if this is pituitary and/or adrenals) then you will often constantly be urinating away all your sodium & need that xtra salt. I am a bit worried about atkins & the salt wasting too.

Do you guys have sleeping issues? Even that is inconsistent with me. Sometimes I go thru periods where I'm ready for bed at 8pm. Other times I go thru insomnia periods. Each period usually last for months. I know the insomnia periods just poop out my adrenals. Another vicious cycle.

Sorry I threw alot out to you. You're probably as drained reading all this as I am writing it! I hope it made sense, because I am so out of it today. I'm thinking I need to definately supplement the Isocort with hydrocortisone.

Oh, that was another thing I wanted to say. I'm not sure if hydrocortisone actually helps 'heal' the adrenals. I was on it I think for 5 mos. Went off, and felt really good for about a month (?). But I wasn't quite back to the person I was before this all happened. Coming off was hard. I had to go up & down just in 1mg. increments. Before this episode, I was very relaxed & peaceful. I had gone through 12 years of infertility, and 4 years of fertility treatment. I had finally overcome the depression from all that. Then I actually had a couple of very stressful incidents. I think that made things worse, but I still think there's more to it. They just tipped me over the ledge. I wasn't diagnosed with the pituitary tumor until after all the $%it hit the fan.
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:20 AM   #14
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One other thing I wanted to mention. I actually was losing weight when I was on 20mg of hydrocortisone. Before that, I was definately weight loss resistant. I think hypoglycemia really is detrimental to losing weight because of that liver dump connection. When I started weaning down, I had more difficulty losing. The only thing is, that on 20mg of hydrocortisone, that is an adrenal suppressive dose. Meaning your adrenals shut down, and sometimes they never kick back on when you wean off. That's the double edged sword of steroids. So if any of you ladies do go on steroids, be careful to only use what you need. It's also been mentioned by people on adrenal boards that these adrenal supplements (Isocort, etc.) can do the same thing. I'm not sure if that is just people hypothesizing, but it would be safer to not take the SAME dose all the time. It keeps your adrenals "on their toes" because it doesn't get complacent putting out the same exact amt. of cortisol every day. That's why I was so nervous initally about taking isocort. The natural adrenal supplements also aren't standardized, so we don't know exactly how much natural cortisol we are getting from those pellets.

That's why when weaning off steroids going up & down helps to jumpstart the adrenals better.
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Old 04-20-2009, 11:28 AM   #15
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snow,

I am so sorry to hear of all you have been through. I understand when you say you need a doctor's advocate. It was why I waited 12 years before actually doing something about it. My OB ran a TSH test to check my thyroid when I mentioned to him 13 years ago that I was fatigued after my first pregnancy. Said it was normal and that I would get back to my old self when my hormones got sorted out after breastfeeding my baby. Well, 13 years later, and 3 more babies, I am worse off. I am so glad I found a doctor who actually gets it and it's NOT all in my head. I have been this way for so long that my hubby and eldest child will say that I am just being lazy. Literally they will say, "What have you done all day?" When I say nothing they are just dumbfounded! What really bothers my eldest son the most is when he leaves at 7:45 AM for school he will leave his dirty breakfast dishes on the kitchen table. When he comes home at 4PM sometimes they are still there. He will say "you can't even clean off the table!" I reply "why can't you pick up after yourself?" My goodness the boy is 13!! Vicious cycle of them getting frustrated with me. So then I usually clean up the dishes. At least I try to get to them before my hubby gets home!!

Here are my sympoms, which actually led me to believe they were thyroid and not adrenals (I had never heard of adrenals til Jan of '09 when my doctor suggested it):

1. fatigue and tired, but not to the point where I want to sleep all day. It just keeps me from doing anything during the day but sit and watch TV
2. cannot get going in the morning--even after coffee!! I cannot schedule anything for the early morning like appointments as I won't make it.
3. feel cold, especially in the hands and feet.
4. very, very low to non-existent sex drive--much to my hubby's dismay
5. lethargy--everything seems like a chore
6. memory is not as good--my kids will tell me 3 times if they want a lunch from home or school but I just cannot for the life of me remember what they tell me!! Even when I am standing in front of the fridge looking for the lunchmeat!
7. have no concentration. I cannot every remember the time I have finished a book. I hate that!!
8. people get on my nerves--every little noise just bothers me. I am constantly telling my kids to keep quiet, the TV is too loud that sort of thing.
9. loss of interest in daily activities
10. headaches almost daily
11. Some other things I never would have attributed to adrenal fatigue but my doctor thinks they do: I have dark spots on my skin (I thought they were freckles!!); bursitis in my hip (the MD offered cortizone shots to make it feel better, and my new doc says that is adrenals); numerous cysts that I have had removed including one on each wrist as well as several on my head.
One of the things that clued her in when listening to me is when I told her if I had to sum up my life in one word, since having my first child, which is when I first started to feel so lousy, it would be overwhelming. She said that was adrenals. I cannot even begin to describe how I am overwhelmed as I don't have much to do during the day, but that is the way I feel!!

snow, I believe that traditional docs don't believe that supplements or even diet can effect your health. They are more apt to throw a perscriptive pill at you and say change nothing. Just like some attitudes toward diabetes--just inject more insulin if your sugars go up. Whole different story altogether I know. I don't have diabetes but I know that some people have that attitude. But like I said my doctor told me what supplements to use for my blood sugar issues. I would rather do it that way than with a medicine. Try the chromium and see if it helps. Like I said it could be that I am concentrating more on what and when I eat but it could also be the chromium that is helping me. I know your troubles are different than mine so your treatment is different but I am grateful you started this thread. I love to learn and hear about others experiences. You never know who you can help!! I have just started this journey and have much to learn. I am hopeful that what I am doing will heal my adrenals, but know that if it doesn't then there are other things to try.

I see some more of your questions above. My doctor said that I am to add at least 1 tsp sea salt throughout the day to my foods. It has been hard to do just that. I end up using far less than I should. In Wilson's book he said to drink the salt water. Then he said if you don't like it you probably don't need it. I didn't like it so I haven't done it since! I might just have to do it just to get the amount of salt I need in a day! And about the sleeping, I cannot get it right either. There are days/nights where I just wake up at about 3 or so and cannot get back to sleep and there are times where I sleep all the way through. But I have to force myself to stay awake to watch the evening news at 11PM. I usually fall asleep somewhere in between 10 and 11. Without my cup of coffee in the afternoon (I loved to have it while Kyle, my youngest went down for a nap and before the bus brings the kids home!) I am finding I need a nap just to get through til nightime.
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Old 04-20-2009, 11:34 AM   #16
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2 other things I have been thinking about. My knee has been feeling swollen lately. My doctor thinks both may be swollen but I can feel the one is definitely swollen. And I have decided to just not worry about weight right now. I am concentrating on all the rules my doctor wants me to follow. I know that right now I will not see any loss of weight. But my doctor did say that once I do get balanced it would fly right off. Kinda depressing since I have dropped so much from my diet it should already be falling off. But I will be patient.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dawnyama View Post
snow,

I am so sorry to hear of all you have been through. I understand when you say you need a doctor's advocate. It was why I waited 12 years before actually doing something about it. My OB ran a TSH test to check my thyroid when I mentioned to him 13 years ago that I was fatigued after my first pregnancy. Said it was normal and that I would get back to my old self when my hormones got sorted out after breastfeeding my baby. Well, 13 years later, and 3 more babies, I am worse off. I am so glad I found a doctor who actually gets it and it's NOT all in my head. I have been this way for so long that my hubby and eldest child will say that I am just being lazy. Literally they will say, "What have you done all day?" When I say nothing they are just dumbfounded! What really bothers my eldest son the most is when he leaves at 7:45 AM for school he will leave his dirty breakfast dishes on the kitchen table. When he comes home at 4PM sometimes they are still there. He will say "you can't even clean off the table!" I reply "why can't you pick up after yourself?" My goodness the boy is 13!! Vicious cycle of them getting frustrated with me. So then I usually clean up the dishes. At least I try to get to them before my hubby gets home!!
I have to say a huge ditto to all this. Family have a very hard understanding
the physical extent of this. I use to be such a multi-task on the go person. There are days I can't even get to the mailbox. In fact, responding to this thread totally overwhelms me, and I have a hard time gathering my thoughts and that mind racing thing gets in the way. But I am so grateful I found you ladies.

There are just so many possible physical connections to the adrenals & other endocrine glands. Even brain chemicals. One's off & it throws off everything. When family is not supportive it gets very demoralizing. My self confidence has just shot out the window. I use to be a very independent person. Now I have to rely on my husband for errands that are out my very local area. It makes me so sad to think that there are people like me who are not able to really live, and feel like they're in this sort of black hole.

Everytime I see that depression commercial, I have to turn it off. It's so hard to watch. That was me a couple years ago, after my last IVF, which incidently I abruptly came off steroids which were used to stimulate more eggs (which little did I know stopping them was effectively dropping me off a cliff). I still feel like the people in those commercial at times.

I remember reading about the pituitary function, and that pituitary disease is a partial disease of "apathy". Your problems stemming from pgy make me want to suggest getting your pituitary checked. I know I've read adrenal problems can be provoked by pregnancy. But the headaches send up a red flag. My last miscarriage about 2 years ago brought on a long spout of constant on & off headaches. That led me to getting tested for blood clotting problems (which often symptoms can come on during pg or miscarriage). So I was diagnosed with a genetic clotting disorder. Which actually just confused the issue & really wasn't the cause. I believe at the time it was the pituitary tumor causing the headaches. When you're pregnant, the pituitary normally swells. The extra hormones usually make a pituitary tumor grow. Just so you know, 99% of pituitary tumors are BENIGN. So nothing to worry about there.

I am very lucky that I do have a 19yo son from a previous marriage. That's another very long story...But I have had 5 miscarriages throughout the years. I now know with strong conviction that it was the cortisol that caused them all. It is a bitter pill to swallow that my clock is very much up, when if I knew what was going on, I would have been able to fix it!

The hardest part for me, is not being able to transition from infertility, to another purpose (working or at least volunteering). I either feel (rarely) totally despondent, or I feel just nothing. I'm sure you know what I mean. My family doesn't even know just how bad I feel. When you are around people with chronic illness, you sort of tune it out. I mean, how much can I complain to my husband without totally wearing him out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnyama View Post
Here are my sympoms, which actually led me to believe they were thyroid and not adrenals (I had never heard of adrenals til Jan of '09 when my doctor suggested it):

1. fatigue and tired, but not to the point where I want to sleep all day. It just keeps me from doing anything during the day but sit and watch TV
2. cannot get going in the morning--even after coffee!! I cannot schedule anything for the early morning like appointments as I won't make it.
3. feel cold, especially in the hands and feet.
4. very, very low to non-existent sex drive--much to my hubby's dismay
5. lethargy--everything seems like a chore
6. memory is not as good--my kids will tell me 3 times if they want a lunch from home or school but I just cannot for the life of me remember what they tell me!! Even when I am standing in front of the fridge looking for the lunchmeat!
7. have no concentration. I cannot every remember the time I have finished a book. I hate that!!
8. people get on my nerves--every little noise just bothers me. I am constantly telling my kids to keep quiet, the TV is too loud that sort of thing.
9. loss of interest in daily activities
10. headaches almost daily
11. Some other things I never would have attributed to adrenal fatigue but my doctor thinks they do: I have dark spots on my skin (I thought they were freckles!!); bursitis in my hip (the MD offered cortizone shots to make it feel better, and my new doc says that is adrenals); numerous cysts that I have had removed including one on each wrist as well as several on my head.
One of the things that clued her in when listening to me is when I told her if I had to sum up my life in one word, since having my first child, which is when I first started to feel so lousy, it would be overwhelming. She said that was adrenals. I cannot even begin to describe how I am overwhelmed as I don't have much to do during the day, but that is the way I feel!!
Oh yes. 2 second memory. My sex drive has totally disappeared - this was fine before this last Oct. I have found thruout the past decade it goes from low to high. The adrenals affect the sex hormones.

And people getting on nerves. Yes!! I was beginning to feel slightly autistic. In that I can't handle external noise/people. Since cortisol is also the stress hormone, that would make sense. I guess it's shutting our non-essential systems in your body to cope. In fact, that is basically a theme with low cortisol. Some Non-essential out the window. Only essentials running. For awhile, I was not able to pick up the phone. Until I got on steroids. Then, when I weaned off steroids, it was the same thing.

But a point I do want to stress. There are so many parts to the adrenals. steroids are not always the total picture. So replacing cortisol does not always just fix things right up. There are different functions & hormones to each part of the adrenals. Right now, I took 2 isocort & about 2mg cortisone. My glucose was up to 116 just from eating eggs. And I still feel like crap. I still feel like I'm low. So that part is very frustrating too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnyama View Post
snow, I believe that traditional docs don't believe that supplements or even diet can effect your health. They are more apt to throw a perscriptive pill at you and say change nothing. Just like some attitudes toward diabetes--just inject more insulin if your sugars go up. Whole different story altogether I know. I don't have diabetes but I know that some people have that attitude. But like I said my doctor told me what supplements to use for my blood sugar issues. I would rather do it that way than with a medicine. Try the chromium and see if it helps. Like I said it could be that I am concentrating more on what and when I eat but it could also be the chromium that is helping me. I know your troubles are different than mine so your treatment is different but I am grateful you started this thread. I love to learn and hear about others experiences. You never know who you can help!! I have just started this journey and have much to learn. I am hopeful that what I am doing will heal my adrenals, but know that if it doesn't then there are other things to try.

I see some more of your questions above. My doctor said that I am to add at least 1 tsp sea salt throughout the day to my foods. It has been hard to do just that. I end up using far less than I should. In Wilson's book he said to drink the salt water. Then he said if you don't like it you probably don't need it. I didn't like it so I haven't done it since! I might just have to do it just to get the amount of salt I need in a day! And about the sleeping, I cannot get it right either. There are days/nights where I just wake up at about 3 or so and cannot get back to sleep and there are times where I sleep all the way through. But I have to force myself to stay awake to watch the evening news at 11PM. I usually fall asleep somewhere in between 10 and 11. Without my cup of coffee in the afternoon (I loved to have it while Kyle, my youngest went down for a nap and before the bus brings the kids home!) I am finding I need a nap just to get through til nightime.
Just make sure to look on the back of the sea salt bottle. If it is strictly potassium (look at ingredients too), DON'T take it. Alot of sea salt is made out of potassium. This will stress your adrenals further. I made the SAME mistake too! Either regular salt w/iodine, or sea salt w/iodine without the potassium. Also if you have thyroid problems, large amts. of iodine at first will make you feel worse.

And the sleep thing - yeah, I feel like there is no consistency in anything. Even my cycles. Sometimes they're long, sometimes they're short. Glucose sometimes goes high, most of the time low lately. Sometimes I wake up at night, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I'll wake up at 7am even when I haven't gotten to sleep till 2am. And sometimes I'll wake up at 10am and feel totally exhausted! I wish I could hook up my body to some kind of monitoring system & see what is going on with everything while I'm sleeping!

And the coffee, if it's caffeinated - trust me, cutting it out will go a long way. It's the worst thing for you. I had to do it again, and the first day I stopped I actually felt BETTER. So you probably won't get that fog from stopping it. I drink decaf now.

Yikes, I already need a nap.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:25 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dawnyama View Post
2 other things I have been thinking about. My knee has been feeling swollen lately. My doctor thinks both may be swollen but I can feel the one is definitely swollen. And I have decided to just not worry about weight right now. I am concentrating on all the rules my doctor wants me to follow. I know that right now I will not see any loss of weight. But my doctor did say that once I do get balanced it would fly right off. Kinda depressing since I have dropped so much from my diet it should already be falling off. But I will be patient.
Dawn,

When my cortisol is low, everything hurts. Everything. Areas of previous injuries included, but not always. I think your knees are probably low cortisol symptoms. I've been going crazy going to a chiro all this time, when I realized my back problems are a cortisol symptom. When I'm in a smooth place with the low dose of steroids, the pain all goes away.

The strange thing is, before I started steroids in Oct. and was feeling fine, my joint pain was throughout the day. Now after all that, my joint pain is first thing in the morning. My low cortisol use to be during the day, whereas now I believe it's worse when I sleep.

And here's something interesting for you to make it all that more confusing. Hypoglycemia can cause low cortisol, and low cortisol can cause hypoglycemia.

Pain can eat up cortisol, and low cortisol can cause pain.

People with long term pain can develop adrenal fatigue.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg??!!

Also low cortisol can cause low progesterone, because your body takes progesterone & uses it to convert to cortisol.

There's just so many aspects to this, it's crazy.

ETA: A good way of telling whether the pain is related to cortisol is relating it to other symptoms. And it took me the longest time to realize when I was stressed, I could bring on joint pain within minutes. The pain would wax & wane all day, just like cortisol waxes & wanes.

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Old 04-20-2009, 12:27 PM   #19
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here are my symptoms (which is why i used to think i was hypo rather than adrenals):
1. cold hands, cold feet
2. constipation (which i take magnesium for)
3. need a nap after being awake for about 3 hours (this is about the time of day my adrenals stop producing cortisol)
4. irritable, some days EVERYTHING pisses me off
5. disinterested in life, i have to force myself to do things with friends
6. no energy
7. feel cold most of the time
8. dry skin
9. foggy thinking, feel like i'm forgetting things
10. depression, i don't consider myself much of a cryer, but these last few months it feels like i'm crying all the time, like at least several days a week. mostly i'll just start crying for no reason.

Other things:
1. earlier this year my thyroid gland became swollen and i went through some hyper symptoms so i thought it was a thyroid issue (the swelling went away after a few days). All my tests, including antibody tests, have come back pretty normal though. My free T3 is low which is thyroid hormone that helps with energy, but i don't think i can fix that until my cortisol is fixed.
2. i was diagnosed with moderate cervical dysplasia last year and we are still waiting to see if it will clear up. Supplements can greatly help with this so i elected to wait rather than do any of the procedures to skim off the top layer of cells. of course i went to see a different doc about supplements, most regular docs think medical procedures are the solution to everything.
3. a few weeks after i went to the doc about my thyroid i have started to fight off some major infection, but nobody can figure out what it is. My lymph node on the right side of my neck was GIGANTIC. I was put on some antibiotics and it has decreased, but it is still swollen even today. It has probably been swollen for around 2 months now. The doc wants to give it a little more time to go down, but otherwise to biopsy it.


snow
it's like a horrible vicious cycle, we can't get better until we go to the right doc, but we are just too damn tired to go through them.

dawn
i know how you feel about the criticism around the house. my boyfriend "jokes" about how i don't get things done and of course it pisses me off. he just doesn't get it. i barely have enough energy to function, how am i supposed to get stuff done???

i posted this in another thread but thought i would re-post here: from my saliva test i have stage 7 adrenal fatigue and there are only 7 stages total. Basically I produce a little cortisol in the morning and then NONE the rest of the day. my blood test for cortisol showed that my cortisol was HIGH. My doc did that dexa .... test and he said that came back normal, but I will be looking at the results further at my next appointment.

Honestly, i think i'd be okay with taking cortisol the rest of my life if it means i would be able to function like a normal person. I think taking the cortisone causes your adrenals to back off from production further, but in my case they ain't making any anyways so there'd be no loss.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:38 PM   #20
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its interesting to read all this b/c im going through the round of trying to figure out what is wrong with me.. and find someone who doesnt think im just a depressed mess!!! im being referred to an endo and i know there will be a wait.. im just sick of feeling sick and tired..

when u say overwhelmed.. thats a perfect word.. mine is exhausted.. and so many symptms are the same.. my thyroid tests fine, ra fine, ana, fine, b12 fine, cbc fine..

its so hard! you just wanna feel beter!!
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:40 PM   #21
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Meb,

Have you had any radiological scans of your pituitary or adrenal? The high blood cortisol levels would have me concerned. There is something called "cycling cushings" - either pituitary tumor or adrenal tumor. Sometimes your high, sometimes your normal (or low). It's one of those things however that is very hard to get diagnosed. Because the cycling can be weeks, months or even years in between.

High levels of cortisol would suppress your immune system.

I hear ya about losing patience/temper. I use to be such a laid back person. I can go off very easily these days. It's often when my glucose is dropping - whether it is dropping to a low or just dropping rapidly period.

I know how toddlers must feel when they ingest alot of sugar, and then later on go into horrible temper tantrums. Because I have had a couple of episodes. Once DH & I were playing Wii, and I literally got up in tears because he was winning. It was so pathetic & ridiculous!!!:blush:
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:42 PM   #22
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caro if you haven't done the saliva test, do it!! i've read that it is a much better indicator for cortisol than a blood test they might do.

also, how's your iron / ferritin?

why can't staples make an easy button for diagnosis???
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:43 PM   #23
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its interesting to read all this b/c im going through the round of trying to figure out what is wrong with me.. and find someone who doesnt think im just a depressed mess!!! im being referred to an endo and i know there will be a wait.. im just sick of feeling sick and tired..

when u say overwhelmed.. thats a perfect word.. mine is exhausted.. and so many symptms are the same.. my thyroid tests fine, ra fine, ana, fine, b12 fine, cbc fine..

its so hard! you just wanna feel beter!!
I think we know exactly how you feel. The first thing I would say is to cut out any caffeine (and sugar of course). That in itself may help. But glad to have you here. Anything I can do to help please let me know.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:44 PM   #24
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why can't staples make an easy button for diagnosis???
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:47 PM   #25
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i had an ultrasound done on my thyroid which revealed absolutely nothing and cost me almost $400 after insurance!!!

i don't feel like my symptoms are cycling at all and my doc has said something in the past about it possibly being cushings, but since then my free T3 has come back in the bottom of the range so I think we are just trying to keep an open mind about everything right now, but he started my on 1/8 grain of armour which i learned is probably too small a dose to show any difference at all.
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Old 04-20-2009, 12:52 PM   #26
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I also found this info today about adrenals:

Quote:
Both the cortex and medulla are stimulated by the hypothalamus, which is a small structure at the base of the brain that stimulates the pituitary gland. The cortex is regulated by negative feedback, such as decreased blood flow to the kidneys, while the medulla is regulated by nerve impulses like emotional distress or exercise.
So, essentialy, a hypothalamus problem can cause cortisol issues too. And emotional distress only affects on part of the adrenal. Which can maybe rule out stress as a cause?

Quote:
The innermost region is called the zona reticularis. This chiefly secretes glucocorticoids, the main one being cortisol, which enhances the metabolism by stimulating the breakdown of fat, the release of aminio acids from the body and the production of glucose.

Cortisol also assists the body to conserve glucose.

The zona reticularis also produces a small amount of androgens, the male sex hormones, in both males and females. These assist with cell growth, muscle mass, are thought to aid growth in childhood and help the development of secondary sex characteristics.
So basically low testerone could be a problem. And atkins may be a difficulty, since it's uses up glycogen stores. And since fat is part of the energy source (in addition to protein), if you had low cortisol it would be difficult for your body to breakdown fat. Which is maybe why low cortisol also contributes to difficulty losing weight. And maybe why I am feeling more "fluffy" despite losing 5 lbs. on induction.

Actually, I should add that my scale says my fat% is lower. I've lost 2% body fat since starting induction.

Whole article: What Do The Adrenal Glands Do?

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Old 04-20-2009, 01:40 PM   #27
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snow,
Interesting thing about joint pain. I never connected the 2 either. In going through symptoms my doctor said do you have any joint pain. I immediately said no. But then I said, "Well I do hurt getting out of bed in the morning. But it's just my lower back and mostly only in the morning." I have been going to a chiro for years about it and nothing ever helped. He was actually not happy when I told him this last time I was pregnant. He told me that some people were not meant to have babies and I was one of those ladies. My back couldn't handle it. What a great guy, huh? Stopped going to him 3 years ago and never thought about it again. I just chalked up my back pain to old age, even though I don't consider myself old. I am only 38 for Pete's sake. So what you say about the pain just confirms in my mind it is not my lack of muscles in my back or not being able to handle pregnancy, it has to do with the adrenals. Who knew? There is so much that is connected that I don't know. But at least we are putting it together. Thanks so much for finding the connection.

My salt is Himalayan crystal salt. I will check the box....The ingredients list is sodium and chloride. It also says that it has 84 ionic minerals essential to sustaining human life. I like it--tastes fabulous!! But nothing else on the box tells about the 84 minerals. I wonder what they are??!! Oh, well.
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:50 PM   #28
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i think joint pain can be a result from a thyroid condition too, but they are all interconnected it seems. but if fixing adrenals doesn't help with the joint pain then maybe look into the thyroid a little more.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:00 PM   #29
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Dawn: If your dr. prescribed it, it's probably all good. Sound like if there is any potassium, it's just a trace amt. Sodium chloride is the right one. The one I initially took was derived from potassium chloride.

This is a clinical writeup of 'adrenal insufficiency', which points out the joint pain connection, so you can imagine the different degrees of adrenal disease can be a cause:

Quote:
adrenal insufficiency
Adrenal gland insufficiency, adrenocortical insufficency, Addison's disease Endocrinology A condition characterized by a marked ↓ in adrenal function Clinical Weakness, hypotension, easy fatigability, weight loss, N&V, abdominal pain, muscle and joint pain, amenorrhea, bronzing of the skin and hyperpigmentation-especially at skin folds Management Hydrocortisone, fludrocortisone
10 Adrenal insufficiency

Etiology

* Abrupt onset Adrenal hemorrhage, necrosis, thrombosis, sepsis, coagulopathy, warfarin therapy, antiphospholipid syndrome
* Slow onset Autoimmune disease, TB, adrenomyeloneuropathy, systemic fungal infection, metastatic cancer, AIDS-related-eg Kaposi sarcoma, CMV

Clinical

* Symptoms shared with 20 adrenal insufficiency Tiredness, weakness, mental depression, anorexia, weight loss, vertigo, orthostatic hypotension, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hyponatremia, hypoglycemia, mild anemia, increase WBCs, eosinophilia
* 10 adrenal insufficiency Hyperpigmentation, ↑ K+, vitiligo, autoimmune thyroid disease, CNS Sx if adrenomyeloneuropathy

Diagnosis
Adrenal insufficiency–exclusion of
Basal cortisol at 8-9 am–≤ 3 µg/dL–normal, 6-24 µg/dL; corticotropin stimulation test-little ↑ after stimulation–normal, plasma cortisol ≥ 20 µg/dL

* 10 adrenal insufficiency Corticotropin stimulation test-no ↑ after stimulation–normal, plasma cortisol ≥ 20 µg/dL; plasma cortisol in low-normal range; plasma corticotropin always ≥ 100 pg/mL

20 Adrenal insufficiency
Etiology

* Abrupt onset Postpartum pituitary necrosis, necrosis or hemorrhage into pituitary adenoma, pituitary or adrenal surgery
* Slow onset Pituitary–1ş or metastatic tumor, craniopharyngioma–± accompanied by pituitary surgery or radiation, sarcoidosis, Langerhans cell histiocytosis–histiocytosis X, empty sella syndrome, hypothalamic tumors, long-term glucocorticoid therapy

Clinical

* Symptoms shared with 10 adrenal insufficiency Tiredness, weakness, mental depression, anorexia, weight loss, vertigo, orthostatic hypotension, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hyponatremia, hypoglycemia, mild anemia, increased WBCs, eosinophilia
* 20 adrenal insufficiency Pallor of skin, amenorrhea, ↓ libido, ↓ axillary and pubic hair, small testicles, 2ş hyperthyroidism, defect in prepubertal growth, delayed puberty, headache, defects in vision, diabetes insipidus

Diagnosis

* Adrenal insufficiency (rule out) Basal cortisol at 8-9 am–≤ 3 µg/dL–normal, 6-24 µg/dL; corticotropin stimulation test-little ↑ after stimulation–normal, plasma cortisol ≥ 20 µg/dL
* 20 adrenal insufficiency Insulin-induced hypoglycemia-little or no ↑ in plasma corticotropin and cortisol in 2ş adrenal insufficiency; short metapyrone test–insufficient ↑ in plasma corticotropin and cortisol; low-dose corticotropin stimulation test-little ↑ after stimulation–normal, plasma cortisol ≥ 20 µg/dL
Someone mentioned discoloration of the skin. I had actually thought that was only caused by cushings, but I see I'm wrong.

Also Dawn, I think you said you had multiple cysts? I also did too. Ovarian, & really large ones in the breast. I chalk it down to estrogen dominance, since low cortisol will lower progesterone. I took vitex for 2 mos. and my breast cysts & the ovarian cyst went away. I had the same darn breast cysts for over a year. Vitex is suppose to lower estrogen in the body. It screwed up my cycles. But whatever. Hopefully some acu will get them restored. One of the cysts in my breast was 4 inches freaking wide!
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawnyama View Post
I have been going to a chiro for years about it and nothing ever helped. He was actually not happy when I told him this last time I was pregnant. He told me that some people were not meant to have babies and I was one of those ladies. My back couldn't handle it. What a great guy, huh? Stopped going to him 3 years ago and never thought about it again. I just chalked up my back pain to old age, even though I don't consider myself old. I am only 38 for Pete's sake. So what you say about the pain just confirms in my mind it is not my lack of muscles in my back or not being able to handle pregnancy, it has to do with the adrenals. Who knew? There is so much that is connected that I don't know. But at least we are putting it together. Thanks so much for finding the connection.
Stupid doctors. Stupid.doctors. What a stupid thing to say! I remember when I was 40 (I'm 43 now), I had gone to my gyno (who wasn't the regular one I would normally see) and I told him about the infertility treatments we were going thru. I told him that my husband was diagnosed with male infertility (we didn't know about my problems then), and he said to me "well, they are concerned about your age too, right"?

You would have thought I castrated the whole male population just by mentioning male infertility. A$$.

I've gotten a TON of stupid comments from stupid.doctors. They should go through ettiquete school before they go to med school.
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