Low Carb and vigorous sustained excersise?

[Flake]

went for a 40 minute run this morning before skiing. It's been over two months since I've been in any sort of running routine. Anyhow today was the same as yesterday plus the run. No bonking yet although I definitely am undersetimated the food I need to pack with me for the day. One boiled egg, a 3 oz hunk of sausage and a two oz hunk of cheddar are not enough to keep up. I'm gonna throw in two extra eggs i think.

It may sound heavy on the food but today I came off the hill starving!!! I don't want to let myself get that hungry...its easy to mess up!!

[Flake]

Originally Posted by biggestloser

This is a fantastic thread! I do a lot of hiking, backpacking, snowshoeing and was curious how to eat low carb on the days I'm hiking for 6 or 8+ hours. I'm in the Cascades, so the elevation gain can be intense. Sounds like it's very possible once I'm totally adjusted, although going into the backcountry for multiple days sounds kind of scary without carbs!

Yeah going straight up from sea level like that must be tough!!! Some people handle it better than others. I used to live in Summit County Colorado. The place was crawling with east coasters and texans, all sick from altitude sleeping @ 10,000 feet. Hydrate...water only, no booze and sleep low and it's not too bad.

Here in Tahoe the house sits at a nice comfy 6200

I would say low carb and doing this stuff is gonna be good for you in the end, time will tell. So far so good for me

[biggestloser]

We have plans to go snowshoeing this weekend. 9 miles, 2300 feet of elevation gain. Going to try out my new MSR Lightnings, so pretty excited. I was planning on just bringing salami and cheese and lots of water. We'll see how it goes!

[Flake]

Do yourself a favor and bring more salami and cheese then you'll need. Like I said I'm finding you need to eat lots extra and with 2300 feet gain you WILL burn lots of calories. I like to eat small steady amounts. Keep us posted on results

[LiterateGriffin]

I've gone in the back country with carbs and without... And did better without.

It's always been my strict rule: "No diets are allowed on the trail. With this much exertion, and this much altitude, your body needs the calories. If you try to stick to your diet, I'm the one who will have to carry you out, which is not fair to anyone. Therefore, no diets on the trail."

And yet this past year, with our own wilderness trips, I'm finding that I felt and performed MUCH better when I stuck to LC. By all means, pack some "emergency food" that contains sugar "just in case"... but have it be the same class of item as your space blanket and first aid kit: something you only pull out in a true emergency. Stick to LC fuel-sources, and you'll get SO much more out of your backcountry time!

And water, water, WATER for that kind of elevation! I just moved to the east coast, so don't have those kinds of elevation-gains anymore -- the Cascade & Sierra Nevada ranges are a huge chunk of what I miss about California!

[gingerfurball]

I'm very interested to hear this discussion. I am currently training for two marathons (I've finished 6 before and about 8 half marathons) and recently (because it's what you do) been having a higher carb diet (with associated weight gain ::face/palm:: ) I know I really need to lose a good 30 pounds...I've been sort of hmming and haaing about going back to LC

I've sent for that book that was suggested on the first page.

I'd be interested to hear how endurance athletes perform on the LC and a typical days food. Including work outs.

My running isn't too challenging at the minute 2 x runs around 3 miles, 1 x 2 miles and 1 x 6 miles this week....all slooooooowwwwww!! Around 10.30 - 11.00 mm

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

I thought when you were in ketosis you had NO glycogen stores. It was my assumption that ketosis only starts when the glycogen stores were used up and then the body starts to produce ketones.

Am I all wrong on this?

Anyone?

[Flake]

In between my morning run. Currently scarfing down 4 fried eggs and five strips of bacon! I gotta admit it seems a little sinful...oh well, i don't want to be as hungry as yesterday, I was ready to eat anything in sight!!!

Being in winter dirtbag ski bum mode i dont even own a scale, I'm gonna have to wait till spring to weigh myself. Maybe if i go to the hospital they will be nice and let me use a scale???

[biggestloser]

Nice to see some outdoorsy cardio folks on these boards.

Yeah, I think I'll pick up a couple disgusting Cliff bars for tomorrow. The ones with raisins! Gross! Then I won't be tempted to dig into them and they can go in my first aid kit.

I'm also going to pick up The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance. Sounds like a good read although maybe a little too technical for me. I have these crazy goals for next season: climb a couple volcanoes here in Washington and hike the whole PCT Washington (500 miles). So I need to lose weight AND get into go cardiovascular shape.

Flake - sometimes pharmacies have scales, like next to the blood pressure cuffs? Or yeah, in any medical clinic. Sounds like you're living the dream!

[LiterateGriffin]

Flake -- is there a college nearby? With, you know, a GYM? They have scales, and don't usually care who walks in! (That tip given to me by a homeless guy I met on a Sacramento bus, who had no respect for homeless-folk who didn't shower daily. lol Go for the PE-department gym, not the "recreation-gym") GNC and stores like that often have scales, too, though you have to pay. When I lived in Chico, I'd go to GNC once a month, because they had one that measured body composition. For $1, it was worth it to me to see the trend. (They're not calibrated that great, but better than nothing!)

[LiterateGriffin]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

Anyone?

You're correct. Just not sure how it applies to this thread?

And any excess carbs you consume are immediately stored as glycogen.

[Colin Dunn]

Reading this thread made me wonder about the effects of low-carb on a hybrid cardio / weight-training program.

I'm currently about 60 lbs. overweight (at 215, want to get down to 155). I'm approaching the weight loss through a combination of Atkins, cardio, and weight training.

As I understand, the cardio is aerobic exercise. I use the "fat burn" programs on the cardio machines to get moderate interval training (but not HIIT intervals).

But isn't weight training an anaerobic exercise? I'm doing a full-body circuit on weight training days. Given that I just restarted, I'm in lousy shape and think that my cardio fitness (or lack thereof) is actually holding me back on the weights. But that aside - will low carbs inhibit my progress in the weight room?

[LiterateGriffin]

Just wanted to cross-post this thread Starting Induction with a fast because Trillex posts some wonderful technical information about LC and anaerobic exercise (specifically weight training and body-building) that I think applies.

[Flake]

Originally Posted by LiterateGriffin

Flake -- is there a college nearby? With, you know, a GYM? They have scales, and don't usually care who walks in! (That tip given to me by a homeless guy I met on a Sacramento bus, who had no respect for homeless-folk who didn't shower daily. lol Go for the PE-department gym, not the "recreation-gym") GNC and stores like that often have scales, too, though you have to pay. When I lived in Chico, I'd go to GNC once a month, because they had one that measured body composition. For $1, it was worth it to me to see the trend. (They're not calibrated that great, but better than nothing!)

wow, great idea. I have a community college less than a mile from here. Will try that out soon. Sweet thanks!!!

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by cleome

I'm assuming, please correct if there has been research on this, that even in NK a person would still start with ca. 1500 calories of glycogen stores to use, and would slide between using fat and glycogen as needed.

Originally Posted by LiterateGriffin

You're correct. Just not sure how it applies to this thread?

And any excess carbs you consume are immediately stored as glycogen.

This is why I asked. I have heard this a couple of times and I was wondering how you could start with glycogen stores if you were in NK.

[westside]

Why didn’t he need much? And what DID he eat?

STEVE PHINNEY: I wouldn’t tell you the details even if I knew because it’s confidential research information. And I don’t think he’d want any of the details of what he’s doing to be public, because, realize, all of a sudden this guy knows absolutely that he’s got a remarkable competitive edge.

I'll bet Tim Olson would tell you if you asked. It's not like there's a cash prize at the end of a 100 mile race

[tiva]

I do a lot of downhill and crosscountry skiing, backpacking, kayaking, bicycling. (I'm just back from a snow bike to the ski trail head, then a ski tour, then a bike back home). I've been very low carb for about 10 years--first to lose 25 lbs, since then because it makes me a lot happier.

I have no problem with endurance sports and low carb. I often eat a couple tablespoons of coconut oil (sometimes mixed with whey protein powder) before a summer bicycle ride. I always bring cheese and nuts with me. I also bring chocolate for most trips--either VLC coconut/cocoa bark that I make myself, or else an 85% lindt bar if I'm feeling lazy. Or M&Ms if it's hot. On long backpack trips and long sea kayak trips, I bring lots of nuts, nut butters, cheese, salami (and M&Ms because they don't melt, unlike my coconut bark, and chocolate has always been a big part of the outdoors for me).

I really haven't had any problems with bonking or exhaustion--although adjusting to VLC did take a few weeks when I first started 10 years ago. If I were doing speed sports, who knows.

Once or twice on hot summer days on a 50 mile bike tour, I did need to stop and buy a candy bar (but that was because I hadn't brought food along, like a nitwit).

[tiva]

Originally Posted by Flake

One boiled egg, a 3 oz hunk of sausage and a two oz hunk of cheddar are not enough to keep up. I'm gonna throw in two extra eggs i think.

Youch! I'm a lot smaller than you are, and that wouldn't be nearly enough food for me. Coconut oil and nut butters are amazing--light weight, energy dense, and for me anyway, very quick response.

You might also check out primal. Lots of people over at various primal blogs add in potatoes and other root veggies once they've dropped the weight. Dehydrated mashed potatoes are super convenient for backpacking.

Most powdered eggs are nasty, but egg crystals are supposedly the exception. I buy a lot of butter powder, cheese powder, and cream powder for long summer trips when I can't be certain whole butter, cream, and cheese will stay fresh.

Those little packages of drained tuna and salmon are good too--fairly light, very convenient.

[westside]

Originally Posted by Punkin

Ultra marathon running is different because you are running at one steady pace for a very long time. You wouldn't do that above your endurance pace.

Hard interval training would be very difficult using only fat as fuel. Also strength training would be a struggle as well, which is why body builders eat carbs on training days. It depends whether we are talking about NK or just low carb. As long as you are feeding your body with carbs I think you would be fine. NK is more for people who need to lose a lot of weight or who have difficulty with insulin resistance. It isn't for athletes who are in training.

You would like to run at one steady pace but most ultramarathons are run on trails and that usually means hills and sustained climbs. A 1,500 to 2,500 foot sustained climb at 40 miles into a 50 or 100 mile race is common. I'd say runners will use thier full aerobic range during the race. I've seen the frontrunners coming into the aid stations after sustained climbs at Western States and I can tell you from the look on thier face, that they are not in thier low end aerobic zone. The trick is to bring it down and recover during the race. One of the physiological benefits of taking walking breaks is that it gives the body a chance to mobilize fatty acids. Interval training is much the same way. Once you've adapted to low carb and long endurance events, you can probably handle interval training.

[biggestloser]

Well, tried the snowshoeing while doing induction today. It was good for the first 2 hours, and then my energy seriously ran out. I felt so tired and cranky. I've done the bonking thing before and this felt different. I didn't feel sick to my stomach or dizzy, mainly just tired like my snowshoes had concrete blocks on them. We were on a different route then I was planning, so not sure what the stats were since our gps died. It felt tough enough!

I'm doing a short / steep hike tomorrow with a friend. So we'll see how that goes. It's this crazy one mile straight up 2500 feet. Climbers use the trail to train for climbing Rainier. Should be fun! Hopefully!

[Flake]

I'm finding that upping my carbs from 15-20 grams per day to 30-40 grams per day is getting me positive results. Basically some almonds and dried craisins and a small low carb gatorade. This little bit seems to give me a little boost when I want it

[biggestloser]

Hey Flake! Have you found a scale yet? I'm sure with how active you are and the lower carbs, you're losing a ton of weight. If no scale, you can go by how your clothes are fitting.

[Flake]

No scale yet but clothes are definitely fitting looser!!! Much looser. I took the drive down out of Tahoe for a couple of days and did some mtb in the folsom area for two days. 5 hours the first day and 3.5 the second. I feel like my endurance is better than ever even if the longer hill climbs are kicking my ass. I ate spot on the whole time and really think I need to consume more calories on days like this. I would guess a five hour day of riding burns 3-4000 calories, on top of a normal day. I'm eating aroung 1500-2000. I felt it this morning as I went out skiing, only lasted 4 hours but that's partly due to very cold temps.

I feel like I am going to take the afternoon and evening today and rest...do next to nothing. I know the keto sticks are sorta worthless but I've been peeing the darkest shade of purple every day. The weight is coming off, i can feel it, i can see it plain as day in the mirror. I'm getting closer to my ideal weight, a weight I have not seen in many many years, a weight i assumed I would never be again.


Eventually those hill climbs will be easier i bet as i won't be carrying 200 plus pounds, it makes a difference. I am stoked as hell about that!

[biggestloser]

Very cool! The weekend after next we're going to stay in this little mountain village up here and do some cross country skiing and snowshoeing. I'm looking forward to it since I should be more keto-adapted than I was on our last outing. I've been doing some walking with jogging intervals and have felt pretty high energy, even with hill climbs.

I received that book, The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance. It's pretty dry! I'm going to try to get through it though.

[Flake]

Originally Posted by biggestloser

Very cool! The weekend after next we're going to stay in this little mountain village up here and do some cross country skiing and snowshoeing. I'm looking forward to it since I should be more keto-adapted than I was on our last outing. I've been doing some walking with jogging intervals and have felt pretty high energy, even with hill climbs.

I received that book, The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance. It's pretty dry! I'm going to try to get through it though.

Snowqualmie?

I would say its getting easier for me. I definitely can hang longer without getting tired and really don't get very hungry at all. Nice even keeled energy that stays all day.

The big challenge is when i go back to work in a couple months. I still manage to get decent excersie when I'm in work mode albeit shorter sesions but I'm immersed in food all day. It is my responsibilty to taste a variety of foods, carbs or not. This is tough but it can be done. I just need to taste in extremely small increments and not let it throw me off. By then I'll be adding some carbs back in anyway. I will refuse to taste sweets of any form, someone else can be accountable for that

[biggestloser]

It's north of Snoqualmie. Have you heard of Leavenworth? It's this little Bavarian village, very touristy, but they have a lot of outdoor stuff to do. And lots of sausage on their menus! There are summer hikes nearby that are some of my favorites in the whole state. I haven't been in the winter so looking forward to checking it out.

Being immersed in food all day sounds tough! Maybe you can be like one of those wine tasters that do a lot of spitting!

[creseis]

Peter Attia is my hero, you should check out his blog, but I don't think I'm allowed to post it here. I do more endurance stuff and I am not concerned about sprinting, but Peter Attia has been starting this stuff called superstarch, which is some kind of carbohydrate mix that does not cause a sufficient increase in blood glucose or insulin, so it can be used as a source of carbohydrate and not affect your ketosis. I don't really know how it works or if I will try it myself.

During races or high intensity/duration workouts, I plan to use a small amount of sugary carbs like shot blocks from Clif or Gu gels, a small amount, just to keep up my glucose, not enough to kick me out of ketosis for a while. It is my understanding that if you are in ketosis for most of the time, during a workout it will not kick you out of ketosis to have a small amount of sugar. I could be wrong, but this is what I get from what I've read--basically, your muscles and brain will use it all and there is evidence that, if you are an active athlete, your insulin resistance is lowered during and up to 30 min after an intense athletic effort.

[Flake]

I did read his blog and while some of it was maybe a little over my head it was fascinating. This superstarch sounds like maybe something I might try on longer rides this spring/summer.

Tomorrow I'm throwing an apple in the pocket of my camelback, along with some cheese and almonds. I'm finding a little boost mid-ride/ski has positive results for sure and doesn't seem to really throw me off track at all

[hockey_gal]

Interesting, but most of the examples posted here are very long endurance workouts.

I play ice hockey and have GREAT difficulty with speed in my game. It is completely GONE. I absolutely have to consume carbs on game days. I'm still not as fast as I was before low carbing, but it is better. In fact, if I go low carb on games days I get shaking muscles by the third period.

Like other posters tho, when I run long distances I have no problems with a low carb day.

I have to note that I do not have any problems processing carbs. I could easily lose weight by reducing overall calories - so I don't have a carb sensitivity. I do think it is healthier and that is my primary reason for restricting carbs.

[creseis]

Originally Posted by Flake

Update-oh man the energy. My resort days are crazy, 8-430 of hard skiing. I've never been able to go without break like this. I carry a camelback and eat hard boiled eggs and cheese on the lift and I push. It's truly awesome!

Rough estimate is I'm burning 500 calories per hour doing this. I'll round it down and say I'm overall burning 4000 per day. Again I'm pushing, some hiking, no stopping. I couldn't eat 4000 calories a day on low carb if I tried. I feel like I've just discovered something about my body, something I sort of knew but this is different.

Gonna try some backcountry the day after tomorrow. That's considerably more rigerous, so we will see how that goes...

I'm just going back and reading some of this to see what happened to y'all low carb athletes to gain some perspective! I downhill ski at a resort I volunteer at. My first week in induction I worked at the resort 2 days in a row and usually I'm exhausted by lunch time and I have to warm up. These were serioulsy cold days, too, and I was on the mountain the whole time. Before I started work, I got 1.5 hours skiing in (including lift lines, etc.), at lunch time I ditched my tired friends and went skiing some more, feeling like a kid again. I stopped outside of the mid lodge to grab some meat for lunch, went right back to skiing, then worked another hour, then skied the rest of the day. Definitely a difference, even in induction I had no desire to lounge!