Mt. Biking - Bonking or "hitting the wall"?

[champion204]

Fairly aggressive Mt. Biking with friends and I bonk about 60-90 minutes into the ride. Prior to LC'ing, I would carb-load (primarily pancakes and syrup) about 2 hours prior to the ride - not an option now. Would also consume a Power Bar 1/2 way into it

I understand the clinical cause is that all the glycogen stored in the muscles is consumed by the activity.

Anyone else have this issue and recommendations?

Thanks...

[wall]

I assume you pack water or something to drink.

have one bottle of h2o and another of powerade or similar. thatll give you the carbs you'd need to keep going.


I mtn bike and road bike.
Depending on how aggressive you ride...gels, bars, whatever will work. Course you dont want to pack alot on a bike.

[champion204]

1.5 hours prior to ride, I consumed medium apple. Also ate 1/2 an Atkins Bar mid-ride. No help. Was well hydrated with H2O. Still bonked about 75 minutes into the ride.

I'll try Gatoraid on the next ride 48g carb for the bottle. Hopefully, I'll burn this over-consumption via improved performance and duration. Will check back in and let anyone know of progress.

BTW, I vary between induction and OWL with average carb intake between 20 and 40g.

[VanjaJames]

What kind of supplements/vitamins/minerals are you taking? Anything that might help?

Also have you had your blood pressure checked? If you can, when you start to "bonk" take your pulse (use an old fashioned watch or time your digi one for 60 seconds) and write down the times when you "bonk" and also when you are at rest (i.e. awake in bed in the AM) to compare.

I have to take blood pressure meds for when I do heavy cardio, and also allergy medication, and then I can go at length, and sometimes when you tire out its your heart, not the food.

[champion204]

Was on Altace (BP prior to LC start in October 08) but completely off because medicated BP fluctuated around 110/60. Now off med, BP fluctuates around 120/70. I self monitor on a daily basis.

Resting pulse averages 55. I have observed that BP is actually lowest immediately after execise and slowly creeps up throughout the evening towards the 120ish/70.

Between MT. Biking days, I ususally treadmill: 15min@4mph (walk - warm up), 12min@5mph (jog); 10min@6mph (run); 12min@5mph; and 15min@4mph (cool down). No issues.

Will capture pulse at next bonk. Will also try and cause bonk on the treadmill and then measue pulse and BP.

BTW: I'm 6'3" male @ 226lbs - down from 314 over several years (T-factor low fat). Started LC end of October 2008 @ 251 (down 25). Not sure if any of this has any impact.

Thanks.

[wall]

Originally Posted by champion204

1.5 hours prior to ride, I consumed medium apple. Also ate 1/2 an Atkins Bar mid-ride. No help. Was well hydrated with H2O. Still bonked about 75 minutes into the ride.

I'll try Gatoraid on the next ride 48g carb for the bottle. Hopefully, I'll burn this over-consumption via improved performance and duration. Will check

Aint nothing wrong with adding carbs if youre immediately burning them according to my logic. Even if its pancakes.

It really all depends on how hardcore your riding i 'spose.


Like I said, I do a bottle of h2o and a bottle of sugarfree powerade (or similar) for about 90 minutes of riding. About 2 hrs before Ill have eaten a carb so its in my system.

For foods:
Course, bananas are good. You gotta replace the sodium and potassium youre leaking.
There are some natural or organic "healthy" carb/protein bars ive used.

Are you training for anything or just exercising?

btw, stop by the dude thread from my signature line.


good luck

[champion204]

Thanks for the information. Always been a "clyde" on the bike but really love it! Will drop into to your thread. Recently moved from SW MN to Texas - sure don't miss the ice and snow.

Initially training for the San Antonio Rock & Roll (1/2 Marthon) next Fall. Intend to run a few 5Ks and jog a 10K prior to this event. At some point in the far distant future, I want to try a triathalon - of course, I swim like an ape...

[huff576]

Hi - I saw Wall was in here from Boot Camp. Figured this was the real deal! I want to head to Colorado this summer and do some mountain biking with a friend. Do any of you have some suggestions on

1. Brand/type of bike to look for.
2. "Off-season" training suggestions - especially in a cold winter climate.

[wall]

Originally Posted by huff576

Hi - I saw Wall was in here from Boot Camp. Figured this was the real deal! I want to head to Colorado this summer and do some mountain biking with a friend. Do any of you have some suggestions on

1. Brand/type of bike to look for.
2. "Off-season" training suggestions - especially in a cold winter climate.

NE doesnt qualify as a "cold winter climate"
There is no comparison for simply grinding gears and getting used to time on the saddle. Do as much riding as you can, as youre able.


RE: brand/type of mtn bike...
its way more important that the bike FIT then look good. So use the new bike stores to sit on several brands of bikes till you understand what a medium is or large frame size is..or what a 17, 19, 21 inch seat tube means...

Best bet though for a bike is craigslist. As soon as you know what size to look for swipe one up off of CL for good discount.
I got an 06 Specialized Hardrock for less then $200.
Great bike for me to learn some skills on. I'm sure youll find something just as good or better.

[westside]

Originally Posted by champion204

I understand the clinical cause is that all the glycogen stored in the muscles is consumed by the activity.

If your consuming 20-40 grams of glycogen a day, you're probably not storing much if any in your muscles. The carbs you take in, depending upon the type, will go more or less, directly from your gut into your bloodstream as glucose or into your liver and stored as glycogen. The brain will dole out the glycogen from the liver and release it as glucose into the bloodstream as needed. And that could be for muscles or organ and brain function. So, like the other have suggested you might want to eat carbs right before exercise or during. Eat or drink.

Blood pressure tends to drop when you stop exercising. That's why after something like a running race you want to keep walking for a while after you cross the finish line. When you come to a complete stop, blood wants to pool in your legs which causes a drop in blood pressure.

[champion204]

When I started, I road a Huffy "rigid" - no suspension, weighs a ton. Basically a real POS. As you progress, you realize the value of bike weight and component quality. Of course, both are directly relative to cost.

I would recommend that you visit a local bike shop. Stay away from Wal-Mart, etc. Over the years, I have appreciated the service and responsiveness of the local shop. When was the last time you walked into Wal-Mart and the guy that sells you the bike: greets you by name; actually rides; tips you in on riding locations; gives you preference on service (really big down here - you get priority over other foreign bikes being serviced); recommend bikes that complement your current interest and skill level. They will:

Size the bike, educate you on all the various components, shift styles, etc. They typically won't over-sell you - they want you as a long-term repeat client (not a one time rape you deal). Most will also offer you a loaner to try. They can hook you up with other riders and normally sponsor group rides. You can spend a couple of hundred to several thousand but don't be spooked. If you are just starting, they will spec you a greater starter bike. Note, if you become an avid rider, you will probably upgrade to your next bike in 12-18 months. My minimum recommendations:

(1) Comfortable saddle
(2) "Hard tail" - Basic front suspension
(3) Clip-in pedals and shoes. This is the most significant initial performance upgrade. It takes a little getting used to but significantly improves your pedaling performance and efficiency. Trust me.
(4) Pump (rail mounted) with spare tube - you will flat normally when you are the farthest distance away from where you dropped in. Be self-sufficient, most avid bikers are and you can help the newbies.

My ride: Proflex (fully suspended); Shimano LX componet class (excellent for its ancient time); Mavic downhiller's rear rim - I kept bending them. Bought my frame at a pawn shop but I've spent a ton at the local shop: replacing the crank; upgrading the components; buying the rear rim; numeous tires, tunes and service, etc.

Winter training reccommendations: saddle something (exercise bike), spin class, etc. I beleive any aerobics is great to build your endurance and wind. Like "wall" said, you need saddle time. Ride, ride, and then ride. If you can, hook up with other riders in your class and do some group rides - very few ride alone. Most bikers are very friendly but fairly competitive - they will push you. Your rear will hurt for the first couple of weeks but it will pass.

Ride on...

[huff576]

Thanks for the advice guys. I think the spin class may be a great place to start.

Wall- Your right, NE is a little warmer than the frozen tundra to the North! Expecting 50 tomorrow, possible 60 on Thursday. Must have another good storm and/or cool down on the way!

Later!

[BrianSCohen]

Originally Posted by champion204

Fairly aggressive Mt. Biking with friends and I bonk about 60-90 minutes into the ride. Prior to LC'ing, I would carb-load (primarily pancakes and syrup) about 2 hours prior to the ride - not an option now. Would also consume a Power Bar 1/2 way into it

I understand the clinical cause is that all the glycogen stored in the muscles is consumed by the activity.

Anyone else have this issue and recommendations?

Thanks...

You body can store about 200-300g of glycogen in your muscles. Your liver stores another 50g or so of glycogen. You are right, the wall occurs when you deplete these stores. Marathon runners get through this by converting to fat burning (ketosis) and the best endurance athletes can smoothly convert over without hitting the dreaded wall.

Have you really gone through induction and achieved ketosis? Have you ever exercised in ketosis? Let me suggest that you do a little experimentation with endurance mtn biking under ketosis before you go and try to feed your carb machine to overcome the wall. My bet is that with a little effort, you could adapt to ketosis and be successful at endurance mtn biking albeit at a slightly reduced performance level. The advantage would be that you could wipe your friends out by keeping up for 3-4 hours since under ketosis you will be just running alone merrily burning your fat stores.

[westside]

Marathon runners store a fairly high amount of glycogen. Actually it can go upwards of 600g in the muscles and 130 in the liver. But what most people don't realize is that with the type of endurance training, ie. long runs and a highly devleoped lactate threshold, the body develops a high capacity to burn fat and conserve glycogen.

So with the right training and running the race at the right pace, not too fast, the runner can to the finish line depleted but not totally empty of glycogen. Sometimes you hit the wall in the last mile or two and you'll know it.

[champion204]

Tonight's ride was very encouraging. My riding partner (brother in law) blew up at the end of our normal 2 hr ride. He is not LC. I was still good to go.

He is a former Cat 1 road rider that let his fitness get away from him and saddled up a Mt. Bike to get back into shape. He has blown me up on the last 4-6 rides over the last couple of weeks as I referenced earlier. I followed his carb loading advice to test. Also carried a Gatoraid (48g carb) on the bike - consumed 1/4 (12g) about 1 hour into the ride.

Note that I've been in keto for the last 4 weeks. Not using the sticks but had and have all the symptons. I loaded 100g carb last night. The only immediate issue was significant and excessive gas (both ends) for about two hours. The following morning, I was up 2 lbs (mostly fluid). Prior to, I've been losing about 5lbs a week. It will be interesting to see how long it takes to recover.

I'll be riding on Saturday while back in keto, it will also be interesting to observe perfromance.

I don't advocate this for anyone, just educating readers on my laymen's study of cause and affect.

This leads me to a question?

Ride on...

[champion204]

I'm trying to determine is the amount of carbs to load prior to an estimated caloric burn activity. Be patient with me - I've only been managing carbs since late October.

We measure carb intake but caloric burn? Is there any relative correlation? I understand that your body will burn carbs before fat.

For example, I know I burn 800 calories in a treadmill session. How many carbs could I theoretically load for a zero-sum gain? To frame it a little better, I estimate that I can burn 1600 calories on a ride which consists of a variety of pace and intensity. My real question is can I estimate the amount of carbs to load to avoid bonking?

Maybe it's just apple and oranges and I just have to test loading values.

Any thoughts?

Ride on...

[champion204]

Answered my own question. 1g carb = 4 calories. So for my loading purposes prior to a ride, I should have loaded 400g carb but I know that 100g sufficed and may have even been excessive. I'll continue testing but its subjective because I really can't tell what my caloric burn is on a ride.

I know that I don't need to load prior to and 800 cal treadmill session but I'm only varying the pace between 5mph (12 min mile pace) and 6mph (10 min mile) - nowhere near the intensity of riding.

Ride on...

[westside]

Champion,

If I'm getting this right, you're making the assumption that carbs are burned first and then fat. It doesn't work that way. You might be coming to that conclusion since you discovered you only needed 100g for your bike ride and that may have been more than sufficient.

You might want to experiment on the same bike ride by eating your typical diet but consuming some carbohydrate 15-20 minutes before you ride. Something like a pint of sports drink (gatorade, etc..), 28 g of carbohydrate and then have some more while riding. Or if getting down a pint of gatorade is too much eat about 150 cals from a bar that has the equivalent of CHO or one of the gels or gel bloks that have about the same CHO.

Ultra endurance athletes like Ironman triathletes or ultrarunners will take in around 225-275 calories per hour when the duration of the event passes 4 and 5 hours. Most of that will be CHO. So much of the energy is coming from fat oxidation since the typical athlete will need to use 450-700 calories per hour to keep moving forward.

You also might want to look into the book "Paleo Diet For Athletes" by Joe Friel which goes into detail how to manage carbs in an otherwise low to moderate carb environment.

The only event that I think it's important to load for is a marathon that I intend to run as fast as possible because the heart rate, output is much higher and the body is reaching for sugar. As for distances that go out for longer miles and duration, like an ultra trail run, carb loading seems less important since the pace has to be slower and I can consume enough along the way.

You probably weren't doing your metabolism that well by loading up on pancakes before a 2 hour ride.

[wall]

its a bit of trial and error champ. youll figure out what you need for the distance and intensity you are going for.

i know i can go an hour, roughly 20 mph on my roadie with basically water on my normal diet. when i run before or after the ride and/or go for a longer ride distance it helps to get a boost with a carb at some point so i'm not draggin'


when youre at the point where exercise is consistent...its nice to enjoy carbs at higher levels again. just make sure to treat yourself to good carbs

also...whey protein (forgot to mention that but i include it when i'm training)

[champion204]

Yes, I am under the impression that you be burn carb (4) cals before fat cals. Loading felt like it dramatically improved my recovery time which improved overall performance. If glycogen depletion cause the bonk, guess I should research glycogen loading/recovery. I know that spinning in a lowwer gear during the ride improves recovery. Maybe its like bodybuilders or weight training where a pause is required between sets? Interesting.

I'll read the recommended book for additional information.

Just for clarification, I'm probably just an above average Mt. Biker interested in maintaining the LC lifestyle - but not at the expense of negatively impacting outdoor activities.

Just searching for my balance.

Thanks again...

[huff576]

I am going to try to revive this thread. I just purchased a Cannondale F5 for off-roading. It handles nice on climbs and is stable on the downhills.

Any recommended "must ride" trails? I have my sites set on trail 403 in Crested Butte, but first I need to do some training. I am looking for other adventures after I conquer this beast.