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-   -   Who has blood glucose rises with fiber? (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/diabetes/810290-who-has-blood-glucose-rises-fiber.html)

Natalia 08-17-2013 03:51 PM

Who has blood glucose rises with fiber?
 
I know a few Type 2 diabetics on the board that they have to watch fiber, or count total carbs because the fiber causes a blood glucose rise.

I was looking into it today and several doctors point out that diabetics cannot use the net carb approach. Carb in any form = carb.

I would love to hear any anecdotal stories you have about troubles with net carbs, fiber kicking you out of ketosis etc.

I am thinking I may have to approach this in a different way than I originally intended.

emel 08-17-2013 04:42 PM

I count total carbs but I'm not diabetic.

I read a notation online which pointed to the idea that 25% of people do absorb fiber carbs. The rate of absorbtion varies, and if I recall correctly, fiber absorbtion is never/rarely at 100%. Unfortunately, I got behind on my reading and can't find the study now.

I was interested in it because I found that flax stalls me and raises my glucose level. It also sometimes caused cravings, as did almond flour, almond butter, and PB2 powder. I'm in OWL with a nod to NK, so I do use them, but only occasionally and moderately. (My carb level is 35-40 total).

I'm dinking around with blood ketone and glucose readings, and I think I do show a response to the fiber-rich products. I'm not 100% sure yet, but twice now I've had a drop in ketone reading after almond flour and PB2.

Natalia 08-17-2013 07:15 PM

If you ever locate that study again, EMel, I'd love to read it!

Well I am considering counting total vs net carb as it seems at least some of the allegedly subtract able carbs aren't , at least for me.

I know many people have rules for themselves based on past observation: they may deduct fiber but not SA's. or halve the SAs to deduct.
I am thinking of not deducting my fiber, not deducting any SAs except erythritol, and testing E to know for certain I can use it,

One thing though-- when people decide to follow total carbs instead of net, they usually bump up their totals. Is this random? I haven't read any programs talking about how to settle in on a total carbs number. If I want to net 15-18 carbs ...
I suppose I could do a 15-18 total carb and then do an Atkins style CCL with raising total carb 5g a week.

ravenrose 08-17-2013 07:48 PM

I have TERRIBLE diabetes, so my insulin dosing has to be very accurate to keep my blood sugars normal. I can tell you that my metabolism is about the worst ever, and I can tell you fiber doesn't impact my blood sugar.

I understand this can vary by individual, but I don't believe that statement that diabetics can't use the net carb approach. If I dosed insulin based on total carbs, I would get TERRIBLE low blood sugars, dangerous ones, often.

When you say "several doctors" say this, you should bear in mind that thousands of doctors give diabetics terrible nutrition advice all the time. Don't be too quick to think these are the exception.

Liz1959 08-17-2013 07:57 PM

That's interesting. I have been eating OMMs lately, but I haven't checked my BS or BK after. That's the only high carb thing I eat and considered it a freebie. I will check next time.

Ntombi 08-17-2013 10:45 PM

I count total carbs, and I don't increase my carb limit as a result. I eat fewer than 20g total per day.

I do not have diabetes.

Aomiel 08-17-2013 11:24 PM

I count total carbs because I have to and I stay under 25gm. My BG is affected by the fiber and the sugar alcohols and when I was giving myself insulin, I had to take all carbs into account. I'm confused as to why someone would bump up their numbers if they have to count total carbs since you'd just be eating even more carbs.

Natalia 08-18-2013 07:50 AM

Thank you everyone!

Ravenrose food for thought! You're right about crazy doctors :) maybe it's not being closer to diabetic that seperates fiber vs non fiber absorbers.
I have read a theory that its volume in your upper small intestine that triggers exaggerated rises. This was from Dr Bernstein and he is well respected.
We certainly don't even understand a quarter of the mechanisms that control our weight.

Aomiel you are correct. I was just thinking in my head that fiber wouldn't be completely absorbed so if you counted half fiber you may want to up your totals a bit.
For me I eat so much fiber I have days where my net carb is 20 and my total is 75!!!

Ntombi : I was already aware you counted total carbs . Can you tell me why you went that route? Did you find you were absorbing fiber and SsA's?

I had a bad fall yesterday and I think I may be getting medication caused demyelineating neuropathy. My right foot feels like its on fire. Did you notice any improvement or worsening of symptoms of MS while LCing?

E.W. 08-18-2013 01:13 PM

I am not doing low carb right now so can't realy comment on how fiber affects my blood sugar. But It might be helpful to make a distention between insoluble and soluable fiber. I would expect 20 g of insoluable fiber would have a different effect on your blood sugar
than 20 g of soluable fiber and even then perhaps not all soluable fiber is equal.

I started taking the soluable fiber intium fos a month ago and it seems to have helped my hunger just a little bit as well as my morning fasting BG is a few points lower. It seems to have taimed my " dawn effect " a little. Before I started this my blood sugar
would rise if I started to do exercise. I might start with a BG of 120 and go for a 15 to 30 min. walk and my BG would go to 140. Now a little exercise lowers my blood sugar instead of raising it. This type of fiber is the magor ingredient in Just Like Sugar but be
warned it can definitly give you gas .....

Ntombi 08-18-2013 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natalia (Post 16563929)
Ntombi : I was already aware you counted total carbs . Can you tell me why you went that route? Did you find you were absorbing fiber and SsA's?

I had a bad fall yesterday and I think I may be getting medication caused demyelineating neuropathy. My right foot feels like its on fire. Did you notice any improvement or worsening of symptoms of MS while LCing?

Oh, I'm so sorry you're getting neuropathy in your foot. :( It's so painful. I started getting it in both feet this year, within a couple of weeks of each other, different types of pain, but both painful/burning, and it affected my quality of life more than any new symptom in quite a while. Luckily, a couple of rounds of steroids lessened it to where it's not a constant issue anymore. I was so relieved. I'm trying not to think of it coming back. I really hope you get permanent relief soon!

Unfortunately, I haven't noticed any difference eating a ketogenic diet. :( I wish I did! But one of the reasons I recommitted to eating this way is that some of the meds I take raise my blood sugar and blood pressure, so I need to be proactive in keeping it as stable as possible.

As for why I count total carbs, I don't know for sure whether fiber or sugar alcohols affect my blood sugar, I never tested. It's very rare for me to eat sugar alcohols in general. The fiber is because it's simpler for me to stick to the total number; if I eat too many veggies, I get drawn into a cycle of hunger that isn't helpful. For instance, if I eat too many carbs at my first meal, I'll be hungrier sooner than if I didn't, maybe after four hours instead of six. Then I'll want to eat more meals in general. That suggests to me that it's doing something to my blood sugar. And I'm talking non-starchy veg like cabbage or spinach, always eaten with protein and fat, nothing crazy. So for my needs, staying under 20g total works better.

Natalia 08-18-2013 05:44 PM

Ntombi: thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply.

Sure was hoping for better news re: LC and neuropathy, though!

Ntombi 08-18-2013 05:55 PM

Me too, woman. Me too.

Natalia 08-19-2013 07:03 PM

Is fiber fiber??

Is it possible to get a rise with coconut flour, but not with chia?

Oat fiber but not broccoli?

I was doing well with the chia pudding for breakfast.
I have been struggling, and eating (too many) deluxe mixed nuts for breakfast.
I need something I don't have to cook or prepare, just grab and sit (though I can prepare it the night before like chia pudding)...

Just when I think I got things all figured out, there's a bunch more questions.

Aomiel 08-20-2013 06:09 AM

Natalia,
I know that I'm sensitive enough to the fiber that it doesn't matter what it comes from or how it's absorbed. I follow Bernstein and eat simply (no processed/pre-packaged foods)...protein and non-starchy vegies with quantity controlled. I pay attention to his statement that distention of the abdomen (even with just water) will cause an insulin response as the body prepares to eat, so I no longer drink with my meals.

I can't even use those fiber drinks that 'supposedly' contain all fiber that just goes right on through. This doesn't make sense to me that nondigested fiber has such an impact but it does.

Ronnie51 08-20-2013 08:50 AM

I don't have diabetes, but I am very carb sensitive. For that reason, I cut out pasta, potatoes, rice, processed food, most bread (except for occasional slice of rye) and cereal. I dearly missed my morning cereal so I bought what I thought would be the "least offensive" according to the high amount of fiber and no sugar, which is Fiber One. According to the label, 1/2 cup has 25g of carbs and 14g of Insoluble fiber for a net carb total of 11g. I ate 1/2 cup of cereal with about 1/2 cup of 1% milk. Well, I was shocked when I tested my BG an hour later....it was 176! I know the milk contributed to the spike, but wow. I tested again 45 minutes later and it was down to 98. I told myself that I would try the cereal again without milk to see what happens, but I haven't done that yet. I guess I should before it expires. :)

E.W. 09-17-2013 01:05 PM

I have been using the soluable fiber inulinFos . Some studies show that taking this fiber
led to a slight loss of hunger and people lost a pound or two. I started taking it about
6 weeks ago and it did reduce my hunger some. And after a long time trying to get back
on JUDDD I was finaly able to. But even before I lost any weight I noticed it was helping my dawn effect. Before using this my blood sugar would show a 30 to 40 mg rise
in the first 2 hours after geting up now this is more like 10 to 20 mg.


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