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Old 08-06-2013, 07:43 AM   #1
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Worse than I thought....labs

Ok here's the update ....even worse than I thought so will have test redone....They said my ldl was close to 250 which took my total up to like 380. The only think I can think that I have done differently in 2 1/2 years has been to have more dairy in the form of cream cheese and sour cream. I do take cla 1200 mg 2 times a day and will be eliminating that ,reducing dairy and eliminating coconut oil before I retest....my doc was hesitant to let me go w/o prescribing a statin but is awaiting my retest results.

Any thought on what could make my ldl go up so drastically.

My ratio was correct they just gave me the wrong info over the phone on total cholesterol. My ratio 3.2 because hdl was really good.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:38 AM   #2
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Strange, indeed.
On the bright side, your HDL is excellent. Since HDL transports LDL out of the system with proper feeding, you may see your numbers improve rather rapidly once you find your adjustments.

I'll quote a lengthy passage from the blog of Phinney and Volek--an article entitled the sad saga of saturated fat.

Quote:
‘you are what you save from what you eat’.

If dietary saturated fat intake has little to do with saturated levels in our blood, then what does? There is, in fact, sound evidence that increasing the proportion of carbohydrate in your diet is a major determinant of increased serum saturated fat levels. We know this because two respected research groups [15,16] fed humans carefully measured diets either high in carbohydrate or moderate in carbohydrate. In both studies, blood levels of saturated fats went up dramatically on the high carb diets (even though they were very low in fat).

On it’s surface, this looks like a paradox. But with a little thought, it actually makes sense. A high carbohydrate intake has two effects in the body that promote higher levels of saturated fat. First, carbohydrates stimulate the body to make more insulin, which inhibits the oxidation of saturated fat. Thus, when insulin levels are high, saturated fat tends to be stored rather than burned as fuel. Second, a high carbohydrate intake promotes the synthesis of saturated fat in the liver. This is particularly problematic for individuals with insulin resistance (characterized as ‘carbohydrate intolerance’ in our recent book [17]).

Insulin resistance makes it harder for muscles to take up and use blood sugar. If it has a hard time getting into muscles to be burned, for the only alternative for this excess blood sugar is to go to the liver for conversion into body fat. This combination of decreased oxidation and increased synthesis of saturated fat therefore results in accumulation of saturated fats in the blood and tissues. The culprit then is clearly not dietary saturated fat per se, but rather consumption of more carbohydrate than an individual’s body can efficiently manage. This threshold of carbohydrate tolerance varies from person to person, and it can also change over a lifetime. Thus the skinny model promoting her particular version of a low fat diet may actually thrive on it herself, but that doesn’t mean that it’s right for you if you weren’t born to be skinny. And of course, it also may not be right for her when she’s 50 after her metabolism has changed.

So, you may be asking, if consumption of saturated fat is not associated with harmful effects on the body, does this mean that this class of fats is completely off the hook? Our response is that the science of nutrition is pretty complex, so beware of black and white answers. Whereas dietary saturated fat intake is unrelated to risk for chronic disease, higher saturated fat levels in the blood do appear to pose a problem. As we noted, there is a lot of variation between individuals in their responses to any one diet. Thus there is an unmet need for tests that will guide individuals to the correct amounts of both carbohydrates and saturated fat to match their personal metabolic tolerances.

In addition to the studies mentioned above in which high carbohydrate feeding increased blood levels of saturated fats, we have also conducted a pair of studies [18, 19] comparing moderate carbohydrate to very low carbohydrate diets. Because these were not very low calorie diets, the low carb diets were naturally pretty high in fat, containing 2-3 fold greater intakes of saturated fat than the moderate carbohydrate diets used as controls. The results were pretty striking – compared to low fat diets, blood levels of saturated fat were markedly decreased in response to the low carbohydrate, high fat diets. Our data indicates that this occurred because the low insulin levels accelerated the oxidation of all fats (and particularly saturated fat); plus the relative paucity of dietary carbohydrate meant there wasn’t much of it to be converted into saturated fats. Thus, from the body’s perspective, a low carbohydrate diet reduces blood saturated fat levels irrespective of dietary saturated fat intake.

Now once we post this explanation of how saturated fats got such a bad rap, we know that we will get angry pushback from those advocates of low fat, high carb diets asking about all of the studies in rats and mice showing that high fat diets are bad for ‘you’ (by which they mean those rodents – not you personally). To that we offer two answers. First, rodents make lousy surrogates for human metabolism. A myriad of drug and nutrient studies show dramatically different responses between mice and men. Second, most researchers who study ‘high fat diets’ in mice use 40-60% fat and 20-40% carbs (leaving about 20% for the protein). Even at 20% carbs, this is still way too much to allow a mouse to adapt to fat burning like humans do when they get their carbs at or below 10% of dietary energy. As a result, at huge tax-payer expense, these many ‘intermediate carb’ studies tell us nothing useful about the human response to a well-formulated low carbohydrate diet.
So what I get from this is that you might want to examine your overall carb intake.
And also, you want to look at your protein intake, because EXCESS protein can convert to glucose, which can whack you out of being truly low carb (since the whole idea of low carb is to control glucose, thereby controlling insulin response)

My quick math guestimate shows something like
380 total chol
250 LDL
130 HDL (above 60 is optimal)
ratio of 1:292 (ETA I see my math is off, since you say your ratio is 1:3.2. Perhaps I'll crunch the numbers again)

In my opinion, this needs to be addressed. Can you post some menus including quantities and carb counts? I'm thinking that you might need to lower either carbs or proteins or both for awhile to get your numbers in better shape.
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Last edited by emel; 08-06-2013 at 08:39 AM..
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Old 08-06-2013, 11:44 AM   #3
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Thank you so much for your help...the article is very helpful. The numbers you show are very close to what my labs are.
Diet ...
Average at home day...
Breakfast
mim made from 3tbs almond flour and 1tbs flax,tbs butter 1 egg, 8 drops ez sweets, 1tbs cocoa or 24 blueberries, 1ounce cream cheese
2 strips thick bacon
12 ounces of coffee with 1 ounce hwc and 1tbs coconut oil

Lunch
optimum nutrition casein shake(i did change this from whey a while back,hmmm)
6ounces almond milk,tspinstant coffee,1ounce hwc, ice
2 slices of bacon

sometimes I just have a snack of almonds or a piece of meat and cheese rolled up

Dinner
6 ounces of whatever meat we are eating
1/2 cup green beans, or asparagus, or califlower,sometimes if no lunch I will have more veggies

snack/dessert sf instant pudding made with 1cup water 1 cup hwc... 1 serving is a half a cup

I was eating a lot of pepperoni lately for my meat and cheese roll up...that could be something I would consider new.

Work day
Breakfast
Same shake as above at 4 a.m.
Americano with 2 ounces hwc and 3 slices of bacon at 7a.m.

Lunch
2 cups romiane lettuce
2 ounces turkey
1tbs blue cheese crumbles
1tbs red onion
2tbs ranch dressing full fat
1 tbs sunflower seed kernels
1 hard boiled egg

Dinner
6 ounces of meat and 1/2 cup veggies

snack/dessert the same pudding as above or sf cheesecake made from scratch and equal to about 300 calories.

If I snack at all it is usually 100 cal pack of sf almonds or meat and cheese roll up
work days start at 4am and end around 730pm for food consumption.
on home days I usually eat a very light lunch because i have a big breakfast.
I have been taking motrin or alieve for chronic neck pain 600mg 2 times a day especially on work days. I work 3, 12 hour shifts.
I don't drink plain water but do consume a diet pop with lunch and drink ice tea(fresh brewed) with dinner and breakfast and throughout the day.
Any thoughts are appreciated

remeber I did raise carbs as I am just about to maintenance.

Last edited by lterry913; 08-06-2013 at 11:45 AM..
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:14 PM   #4
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The CLA thing is interesting. When I googled it a couple of weeks ago I found that it raises blood sugar in some. Apparently there's two types, one that seems to raise it, one that has better success lowering it. Google "CLA and blood sugar." One of the articles on the first page talks about the two types.

Then I googled "CLA and cholesterol." Check out the article on Mark's Daily Apple. Had you started the CLA after your last blood panels?
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:50 PM   #5
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I think your food looks terrific.

The blood levels can be baffling. I knew a tiny slip of a woman-- I don't think she weighed 90 lbs at about 4'11". She ate no red meat, no eggs, no shrimp (high in dietary cholesterol but I don't think that matters). Her cholesterol was around 450. Crazy.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:33 PM   #6
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When you say you ate "hwc", what is this? Thanks!
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluethistle View Post
When you say you ate "hwc", what is this? Thanks!
Heavy whipping cream.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emel View Post
I think your food looks terrific.

The blood levels can be baffling. I knew a tiny slip of a woman-- I don't think she weighed 90 lbs at about 4'11". She ate no red meat, no eggs, no shrimp (high in dietary cholesterol but I don't think that matters). Her cholesterol was around 450. Crazy.
Yep. I was really interested in this thread because I will have my blood panels read this fall for the first time since the Doc wanted me to go on meds for borderline Diabetes 2. I begged off to see if I could change it myself. I've done Low Carb for almost 7 months and lost 27 pounds. I'm hoping this will make a difference in my panels, but who knows?

I think it's important that we prepare ourselves for the fact that some of us just have faulty machines in this respect. And I will go on the meds if my efforts don't make a difference.

But I do get pretty confused about how to read test results. Seems losing weight triggers an inflammatory effect from what I've read, and a rise in LDL in not uncommon in this process, but tapers off once weight goal is reached and become stable. And then, is it a particle test, IOW, one that separates benign LDL from dangerous LDL, the benign being most likely to rise on LC from what I've read? I've read so much on all this, that sometimes it turns into a big pudding in my head!
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Old 08-06-2013, 07:09 PM   #9
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Usualy your total chlosterol also reflects your trigleceride levels also using this
formulia. Total chlosterol = HDL + LDL + 1/5 trig as in one of my labs.

CHOL 202

Trig 102

HDL 69

LDL CL 113

As you see my LDL + HDL = 182 but when 1/5 of my TRIG are added in my total
comes up to 202 .

You may want to listen to this podcast. It touches on the fact that not all LDL
is bad. It comes in 2 size particles large fluffy ones that are not harmful and small
ones that are realy evel. There is a VAP chlosterol test that can tell you if most
of your LDL is large or small. Usualy if your trig are less than twice what your HLD
is you will have the good fluffy kind of LDL.


895 The Great Cholesterol Myth - The People's Pharmacy®
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:45 AM   #10
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I do realize there is a difference in ldl sizes...but with no changes in menu except upping carbs a little for pre maintenance my ldl went up almost a hundred points in less than a year and I have been eating this way for almost 3 years. I had had blood work in 2009 while on sad diet and was normal... finger stick at work 1 less than a year ago was good but a change of 100 points in ldl in less than a year with this test was scary...Someone suggested getting thyroid checked, does this make sense?
until then it is back to tracking and cutting portions a little to see if I was just eating too much food in general as I was maintaining pretty good.
How long should I wait to retestas my doc thinks I am a coronary waiting to happen...the only reason she let me leave w/o script was hdl was so high...I have my first upper respiratory infection since starting this woe and I wonder if I should wait til that clears up and I cut back a lil on dairy, get rid of cla supplement, and omit coconut oil unless cooking with it. I was taking it twice a day in my coffee as a lot of people metioned its benefits.
Thanks all for your help as this greatly concerns me...maybe my issue will help someine else if we figure it out.
Emel the article you posted was helpful and when I dug into it I realized maybe I was stressing my liver by just eating too much because I could. I am going to cut back...maybe I was lsipping into rewarding myself with food again just because I could and didn't gain.
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Skies View Post
The CLA thing is interesting. When I googled it a couple of weeks ago I found that it raises blood sugar in some. Apparently there's two types, one that seems to raise it, one that has better success lowering it. Google "CLA and blood sugar." One of the articles on the first page talks about the two types.

Then I googled "CLA and cholesterol." Check out the article on Mark's Daily Apple. Had you started the CLA after your last blood panels?
I was already on the cla...it is the tonalin brand...but I wondered if it could build up in my system. I will check out the articles you mentioned.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.W. View Post
Usualy your total chlosterol also reflects your trigleceride levels also using this
formulia. Total chlosterol = HDL + LDL + 1/5 trig as in one of my labs.

CHOL 202

Trig 102

HDL 69

LDL CL 113

As you see my LDL + HDL = 182 but when 1/5 of my TRIG are added in my total
comes up to 202 .

You may want to listen to this podcast. It touches on the fact that not all LDL
is bad. It comes in 2 size particles large fluffy ones that are not harmful and small
ones that are realy evel. There is a VAP chlosterol test that can tell you if most
of your LDL is large or small. Usualy if your trig are less than twice what your HLD
is you will have the good fluffy kind of LDL.



895 The Great Cholesterol Myth - The People's Pharmacy®
well the bolded part makes me feel better as my triglycerides are 59

exact numbers were
total 385
hdl 122
ldl 251
trig 59
ratio 3.2
fasting glucose104

My fasting glucose was higher than the last time I had it done but I don't have that record handy and don't test as I am not diabetic.
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:09 PM   #13
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Also E.W. is the bolded part about triglycerides from that source you cited or just rule of thumb?
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lterry913 View Post
I do realize there is a difference in ldl sizes...but with no changes in menu except upping carbs a little for pre maintenance my ldl went up almost a hundred points in less than a year and I have been eating this way for almost 3 years. I had had blood work in 2009 while on sad diet and was normal... finger stick at work 1 less than a year ago was good but a change of 100 points in ldl in less than a year with this test was scary...Someone suggested getting thyroid checked, does this make sense?
until then it is back to tracking and cutting portions a little to see if I was just eating too much food in general as I was maintaining pretty good.
How long should I wait to retestas my doc thinks I am a coronary waiting to happen...the only reason she let me leave w/o script was hdl was so high...I have my first upper respiratory infection since starting this woe and I wonder if I should wait til that clears up and I cut back a lil on dairy, get rid of cla supplement, and omit coconut oil unless cooking with it. I was taking it twice a day in my coffee as a lot of people metioned its benefits.
Thanks all for your help as this greatly concerns me...maybe my issue will help someine else if we figure it out.
Emel the article you posted was helpful and when I dug into it I realized maybe I was stressing my liver by just eating too much because I could. I am going to cut back...maybe I was lsipping into rewarding myself with food again just because I could and didn't gain.
Are you sure these are actually your lab results? I have had the lab give me someone else's results before. I knew because besides the new "wonky" areas, other tests that I was historically very high in were magically normal. I would maybe retest.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gardengoddess View Post
Are you sure these are actually your lab results? I have had the lab give me someone else's results before. I knew because besides the new "wonky" areas, other tests that I was historically very high in were magically normal. I would maybe retest.
I am retesting but amazingly all the numbers remained relatively the same. Only the ldl was changes by any significant amount. I just didn't want to retest too soon and not try changing anything and have results turn out the same...I am not as concerened as my doctor was as all my other numbers were really good.

I just hate it when they say with numbers like that you are a heart attack waiting to happen...she then took it back and said all the other numbers were great so retest.
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:37 AM   #16
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Yes, thyroid being off can definitely make a difference. When mine was off and my doc upped the T4 at the time, it brought my cholesterol down at least 30 points.

With your trigly's that low I bet you have the large, fluffy LDL. The VAP or NMR test will confirm particle size.
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:09 AM   #17
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Your HDL and triglycerides are stellar.
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Old 08-16-2013, 06:56 AM   #18
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Thankyou and you and I realize this but doc is making me retest. I have since found a link that helped me interpret ratios and I have done a little more reading about what could cause this spike...I have cut a few things from my diet and added panthenine to see if it brings my numbers down a lil to upease the doc.
Here is the calculator link I found for cholesterol and triglycerides...it made me feel better to know my ratios were all IDEAL even if the actual number were high in some cases.
Cholesterol HDL/LDL/Triglycerides Ratios Calculator
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:18 AM   #19
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I am as confused as anybody about cholesterol and how much or how little we should have in our bodies. But, I believe that the key indicator for predicting heart disease is the HDL/TriG ratio, not the total LDL or even LDL/HDL ratio. So, you might find some comfort there.
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