LDL Question

SJN02 · 03-03-2009, 06:10 AM

I did not see this cholesterol board until now so I will copy my post from another thread. My LDL was 172 my total was 238. I don't know what my HDL (I will see that today when I pick up a copy)was as they just told me these 2 numbers. They want me to take Zetia. Can I lower my LDL with just taking Niacin? If so how much should I take and what is the non-flushing? I should add too that I am on BP medicine too. I am going to be losing health insurance and hate to add another prescription to my bills.

TheWildHaggis · 03-03-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJN02

Can I lower my LDL with just taking Niacin? If so how much should I take and what is the non-flushing?

I've been taking 2 grams of the regular flushing kind of Niacin everyday for two test cycles now, and my LDL more than double from 65 to 170. Thankfully it raised my HDL from 61 to 88, so my ratio is still in check at 3. I don't believe the Niacin raising my LDL, but it appears it didn't stop it not that I expected it to.

SJN02 · 03-03-2009, 09:31 AM

WOW! Ok, so niacin is not the thing to take to lower LDL then. Now what??

Stevie Renee · 03-03-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJN02

WOW! Ok, so niacin is not the thing to take to lower LDL then. Now what??

I dont think Wild said that. Pls, do your research. Also, if you go over 500 mg in niacin, it should be under a doctors supervision.

If you read heartscanblog..Dr. Davis said to be patient with niacin.
And even take a iacin vacation.

Here is his blog...

The Heart Scan Blog: Be patient with niacin

There are numerous steps - to lower the LDL but it is also important to now your particle size of the LDL by getting what is called a VAP test.

I encourage you to read the blog on all aspects of LDL, niacin, etc. - he is a low carb advocate also. Wheat free, corn free diet advocate. He actually likes the Paelo diet and South Beach with just a few exceptions of that woe.

Wishing you luck.

Stevie Renee · 03-03-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWildHaggis

I've been taking 2 grams of the regular flushing kind of Niacin everyday for two test cycles now, and my LDL more than double from 65 to 170. Thankfully it raised my HDL from 61 to 88, so my ratio is still in check at 3. I don't believe the Niacin raising my LDL, but it appears it didn't stop it not that I expected it to.

Wild - what does 2 grams equate to as far as mgs go?

Stevie Renee · 03-03-2009, 02:16 PM

Something to read if you are so inclined

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - Dr Davis...
When is LDL cholesterol NOT LDL cholesterol?

Darlene had a high LDL cholesterol, at times as high as 200 mg/dl. Her primary care doctor first tried Mevacor, then Pravachol, then Zocor, then Lipitor. Every statin drug failed to reduce Darlene's LDL below 160 mg/dl, even when maximum doses were used. The higher doses also resulted in nearly intolerable muscle aches and weakness.

When we sent Darlene's blood sample off for lipoprotein analysis, a surprise came back: she had a high lipoprotein(a), or Lp(a). This explained a lot.

LDL cholesterol is not always just LDL cholesterol. One of the particles that can masquerade as LDL is Lp(a). Darlene's story is typical of many people who've had high cholesterol levels poorly responsive to the statin drugs. That's because their LDL conceals Lp(a), which does not respond to these agents. LDL cholesterol does drop some because there's also some real LDL mixed in.

A poor response to statin agents or to nutritional strategies to reduce LDL is a tip-off that Lp(a) may be hidden. The answer: just measure Lp(a)! If you and your doctor don't measure it, you won't know whether or not you have it. Rather than a statin drug, we put Darlen on niacin. Not only did her Lp(a) drop, but her LDL also plummeted.

SJN02 · 03-03-2009, 03:23 PM

Thanks for the info. I will have them test that in 3 months when I get re-checked. I picked up my copies today. I don't understand all this. It is so confusing to me. Here are my numbers:
Total chol: 238
Triglyceride: 134
HDL: 39
LDL: 172
My ratio: 6.10

Can someone help me understand these numbers? I was reading in another thread that the LDL means nothing. Is that true? That is why my dr wants me to take zetia.

Stevie Renee · 03-03-2009, 04:46 PM

Well - for me - LDL is important if you know your particle size. If you don't, then rushing on to meds is crazy.

I would ask a few questions..

Are you on supplements like fish oil? You need a good fish oil ( in my humble opinion) every day. The goal is to get your daily intake of EPH/DHA up to 1800 or higher -

Also, go to heartscanblog and research the med. I would not jump to meds. I would look get very proactive! Its very common for docs to prescribe meds without really being an advocate into other alternatives.

Exercise, wheat free, corn free, processed food free diet - eat some good fats including saturated. In my untrained eye, your tri's are up, and need to come down fish oil is a start along with diet. If you have been eating the typical American Diet - shudder - even the so called healthy stuff like Cheerios -this effects your tris -heck it effects all of the numbers.

HDL - too low. Guess what? Fish oil, dark chocolate, red wine - stuff like that can help! Again -go read heartscanblog - goal of HDL is 60 -maybe higher?

Ratio - too high. I think it should be under 3 - but again, don't panic. You can change these numbers.

I wonder - how long have you been low carbing and pls forgive me..do you go off plan often? Are you female? Male? So many questions.

I am sure others will pop in and give their 2 cents.

From what I have read...optimum is 60-60-60 - HDL, LDL, TRI. Gives you an idea. I am sold on Dr. William Davis so others may not be..and have other optimum numbers.

In the end..you gotta do what makes you sleep at night and make your own choices.

SJN02 · 03-04-2009, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chantel

Well - for me - LDL is important if you know your particle size. If you don't, then rushing on to meds is crazy.

I would ask a few questions..

Are you on supplements like fish oil? You need a good fish oil ( in my humble opinion) every day. The goal is to get your daily intake of EPH/DHA up to 1800 or higher - [COLOR="DarkOrange"]NO, I DON'T TAKE FISH OIL. IS THERE A KIND THAT YOU DON'T BURP UP AND TASTE...LOL I CAN'T STAND EVEN THE SMELL OR TASTE OF FISH.[/COLOR]
Also, go to heartscanblog and research the med. I would not jump to meds. I would look get very proactive! Its very common for docs to prescribe meds without really being an advocate into other alternatives. [COLOR="darkorange"]I DON'T WANT TO GO ON MEDS, THAT IS WHY I AM TRYING TO FIGURE SOMETHING ELSE OUT. I WENT TO HEARTSCANBLOG YESTERDAY, I WILL RESEARCH IT MORE TODAY WHEN I GET EXTRA TIME.[/COLOR]
Exercise, wheat free, corn free, processed food free diet - eat some good fats including saturated. In my untrained eye, your tri's are up, and need to come down fish oil is a start along with diet. If you have been eating the typical American Diet - shudder - even the so called healthy stuff like Cheerios -this effects your tris -heck it effects all of the numbers. [COLOR="darkorange"]WITH OUR GROCERY BUGDET AT 100 A WEEK, I HAVE TO EAT WHAT MY FAMILY EATS AND IT IS CHEAP. NOT LOW CARB. WE DO TRY AND MAKE SURE WE HAVE PROTEIN AND VEGGIE WITH EACH MEAL, IT IS USUALLY JUST MIXED IN WITH THE STUFF THAT'S NOT SO GOOD FOR YOU I GUESS. I AM LOSING WEIGHT EATING THIS WAY, BUT REALLY NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT, IF I AM [/COLOR][COLOR="darkorange"]LOSING AND IT'S NOT HEALTHY, WHAT'S THE POINT???[/COLOR]
HDL - too low. Guess what? Fish oil, dark chocolate, red wine - stuff like that can help! Again -go read heartscanblog - goal of HDL is 60 -maybe higher?

Ratio - too high. I think it should be under 3 - but again, don't panic. You can change these numbers. [COLOR="darkorange"]YOU ARE VERY ENCOURAGING...THANK YOU[/COLOR]

I wonder - how long have you been low carbing and pls forgive me..do you go off plan often? Are you female? Male? So many questions. [COLOR="darkorange"]ON AND OFF MOST OF THE TIME AS I WROTE ABOVE, NOW MUCH $ IN BUDGET WITH THIS ECONOMY. I AM FEMALE, 36 YEARS OLD.[/COLOR]
I am sure others will pop in and give their 2 cents.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP. I NEED IT!!

TheWildHaggis · 03-04-2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chantel

Wild - what does 2 grams equate to as far as mgs go?

2000mg. Four 500mg tablets to be exact.

I'm not that worried about my LDL level, but my doctor is. So to keep the peace with him, I'm trying to get the lipid cake and eat it too with lower LDL levels. As for getting that down, I'm still trying. The last test cycle had me dipping back down to Induction levels and I was retested yesterday. I'll find out the damage in about a weeks' time.

TheWildHaggis · 03-04-2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chantel

From what I have read...optimum is 60-60-60 - HDL, LDL, TRI. Gives you an idea. I am sold on Dr. William Davis so others may not be..and have other optimum numbers.

I track Dr. Davis musings and I am trying for the 60 (88) 60 (170) 60 (42) club as well. I've bettered two of them, but the LDL isn't acting like I expected. The one glaring fact about it is that it climbed to these levels some 9 months after I started LCing and where it slowly drifted lower. Most everything I've read regarding this spike says that this might happen in the beginning of LCing, and then level off. In the context of a year, 9 months isn't what I call 'in the beginning'.

More troubling news, is that a few people I've asked about this tell me that when LCing, their LDL levels do tend to drift up and down. This might not be a worry if you know your particle size and believe the science behind it, but while I want to believe, the science is still too new for me. For example, what are IDLs? What formed them and what if any roll do they play in the grand scheme of things? Also, I've read HDL also comes in different flavours and that one of those flavours might not be as good as the others. Ugh...lots to consider.

One thing I am sure about is regardless of how the lipids pan out, LCing is the best option for me. Thankfully, I'm at home with it.

Stevie Renee · 03-04-2009, 09:00 AM

Wild - interesting. Thanks for sharing. I re-read the naicin stuff and he said it can take a year for it to work. And yes, I agree, with a lot of what you said about the fluctuations.
I had my nunbers tested - still waiting for results - and will see what that IDL is. I will see what I can dig up. My ratio is 2.7 or 2.4 - something like that but my LDL is 147. I am waiting for particle size - but regardless, I am like you - a low carber. Its the only way to go for me also.

Stevie Renee · 03-04-2009, 09:18 AM

SJNo2,
morning

First I just want to give you a hug and say I get the budget issue. My mom was a single mother for years upon years and we had a low budget. As a result, my child hood had lots of cheap junk to gobble up. I blame her for my sweet tooth

- all kidding aside, trying to find sales, using coupons, etc, I would ensure there are eggs, hamburger, hopefully some veggies, cheese in the mix. The thing that is impertive to remember, when you cut the carbs, and try not to go on and off, the lab results will reflect in your favor. My Dh is a well, a yo-yoer - however right now he is doing very well on very low carb (again) and is dropping weight - his LDL was not great- doc wants him on meds. But - I think he is finally getting it. He cannot yo-yo - he must be consistant with diet. He always exercised. Thats no biggie to him. But the diet - well thats the kicker. Although - I do think some people have inheritantly high numbers. (I am not an expert. I am just learning actually. - so my two cents is just that - two cents of an opinion)

Fish oil..this is my experience. If its really nasty fish oil burps, maybe its a bad quality. I would try differant things but in my humble opinon, look for a sale and try them out. You need to look at the EPA/DHA amount. At the end of the day, I take close to 3000 mg. That equates to 6 fish oils. I buy all around. But I believe in fish oil.

Diet - I believe wheat products are worse then sugar - now sugar is bad - yes - but really, processed food with wheat, corn, high fructose corn syrup. Its gotta go. This is part of the big bad wolf of LDL small particle, high cholestrol. Again - thats my understanding.

You can reverse ratios - you can reverse heart disease. I have seen it on Dr. Davis web site. It takes work, it take a plan. Now my brother who is an i-d-i-o-t (did I just type that? Well for the record, he is my half brother

) had a heart attack, got a stint, takes meds out the nose and guess what? hasnt changed a dang thing. So yes, he is an i-d-i-o-t. lol

36 years Young!(just a babe!). My husband is 37. lol - I robbed the cradle. I am turning 46 this year. lol - but my cholesteral isbetter then his because I have low carbed a wee bit better through the years. lol- and I was not sneaking wheat products in at the dang drive through

- lol. Not perfect, I have a problem with chocolate.lol

Niacin..like Wild and I are talking about, getting a perfect balance is not easy but is is a work in progress. I think the niacin is a great idea..read all that stuff.

I am going to try the naicin for giggles - just too see. I am going to get my work done in a year or less. Just to test it out. I am nervous however, of the flsuhbut I will take it with fish oil, water and bedtime.

The niacin can take a year to really work! And you cycle it. But..it looks like he mentions getting a liver test when going over 1000mg. I am game for that.

Are you on induction or whats going on right now with your eats?

SJN02 · 03-05-2009, 05:58 AM

Chantel - Thank you so much for your help/advice. I will get some fish oil and niacin this weekend. And I will try to eat lc. I do always have meat, veggie and carb for the meals I make, so I will just keep the carbs away from me. I really appreciate all your help!!!! I have to get re-checked in 3 months (if we still have insurance) so I will post back and let you know how it is going. Thanks again!!

Stevie Renee · 03-05-2009, 09:01 AM

You are welcome. I am a work in progress to so dont think you are alone. Alot of us are striving to get it right and live long, healthy lives.

Talk soon.

mamagiff · 03-09-2009, 07:22 AM

For fish oil...get the kind that say "enteric coated"...no fish burps ever! I hate fish and this was recommended to me. I have been taking this kind for a couple of years now. Still not having success lowering the LDL but I'm not stressing about it because I have a higher HDL and low tris with a good ratio.

I've made more changes in my food so I'm hoping that will help. I've always exercised a lot so adding more in that area won't make a difference. I have also switched to SloNiacin because I had been taking the flush free but when I read that it wasn't helpful (and it wasn't for me) I switched.

I'm hoping the next time my bloodwork shows improvement...

Stevie Renee · 03-09-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamagiff

For fish oil...get the kind that say "enteric coated"...no fish burps ever! I hate fish and this was recommended to me. I have been taking this kind for a couple of years now. Still not having success lowering the LDL but I'm not stressing about it because I have a higher HDL and low tris with a good ratio.

I've made more changes in my food so I'm hoping that will help. I've always exercised a lot so adding more in that area won't make a difference. I have also switched to SloNiacin because I had been taking the flush free but when I read that it wasn't helpful (and it wasn't for me) I switched.

I'm hoping the next time my bloodwork shows improvement...

Linda,
Dr Davis told me to wait for 6 months to test my cholesteral after starting the niacin. fyi..

Also..how much EPA/DHA are you taking from the fish oil? Bythe days end, whats the amount?

And finally, did you get a VAP test to find out if your LDL is small or fluffy? Fluffy is the good stuff. Ihave small and fluffy. lol - working on it to get it all fluffy.

PS: I have a good ratio too..decent Tri and decent HDL. And my LDL is 159. I am a work in progress also. - my ratio was 2.4 or 2.7 - something like that.

robing0110 · 03-09-2009, 09:52 AM

Coconut oil is excellent for lowering cholesterol

Stevie Renee · 03-09-2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robing0110

Coconut oil is excellent for lowering cholesterol

Yum! We enjoy it every morning

mamagiff · 03-09-2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chantel

Linda,
Dr Davis told me to wait for 6 months to test my cholesteral after starting the niacin. fyi..

Also..how much EPA/DHA are you taking from the fish oil? Bythe days end, whats the amount?

And finally, did you get a VAP test to find out if your LDL is small or fluffy? Fluffy is the good stuff. Ihave small and fluffy. lol - working on it to get it all fluffy.

PS: I have a good ratio too..decent Tri and decent HDL. And my LDL is 159. I am a work in progress also. - my ratio was 2.4 or 2.7 - something like that.

I didn't get the VAP test as far as I know. I had read that if you have low tris and high LDL that it's most likely that you have the fluffy stuff rather than the small stuff. To be honest, I really haven't discussed cholesterol with my dr. at all. I have gotten the bloodwork results via snail mail with a note that if I have questions, I should call. I'm assuming that since my ratios are good, he isn't concerned about the LDL so much.

I doubt I'll be getting bloodwork done for several months yet...last one was in the beginning of Dec.

I don't know off hand the amount of fish oil....I'm sure it's too low right now...I quit taking all supplements last year for a while and now I'm just getting back into them again.

Bring it on · 03-14-2009, 04:21 PM

Chantel,

I have heard you say that Wheat has to go in a few different threads. Why is wheat so bad and is whole wheat the same? I am particularly concerned because My wife thinks that whole wheat bread is better for us. I don't eat bread but my daughter from time to time will have a pb sandwhich. I also have not been checking labels for Wheat.

Stevie Renee · 03-15-2009, 05:51 PM

Richard,
If you have her read Dr. Davis blog, he goes into the wheat he!! on several posts. A couple of examples below....(his blog is in my signature)
It is very bad. Also, I think Taubes goes into it, chapter 7. Don't quote me, in the book Good Calories, Bad Calories. Wheat, processed foods are bad for the heart, body. (CHEERIOS IS THE KISS OF DEATH.lol) Lots and lots of the low carb books talk about it.

I check most labels but just teaching the hubby. Also, no beer. Its wheat! lol -

If I were to give my son bread, I would buy him bread with no food dye, no high fructose corn syrup. So that is something your wife should look at. Also, perhaps find bread with protein in it. Good luck on that! Also, I would buy only natural peanut butter and dye free jelly. Its not easy trying to get a pbj sandwhich healthful. My son has had his share up until last year. Now he is close to grain free with an occassional pizza or Subway.

[COLOR="red"]WHEAT HE!![/COLOR]
Can including wheat in your diet create hell on earth?

Was The Inferno nothing more than Danté’s prediction for the state of the U.S. diet circa 2009?

I’m kidding on The Inferno allusion, but the American diet nonetheless sure does create an inferno of unhealthy phenomena.

If we define hell on earth as constant, nagging pain and discomfort; energy depleted sufficient to impair daily function; chronic bloating and diarrhea; leg swelling, peculiar rashes; progression of a multitude of diseases ranging from annoying all the way to fatal . . . well, that’s a pretty bleak picture.

I have indeed witnessed it all. Inclusion of wheat products in the human diet in many (not all--I'd estimate 70% of people) yields devastating health effects. In a few, it shortens life. In the majority, it leads to a slow, miserable hell of inflammatory diseases like arthritis, coronary disease, and cancer.

I have also witnessed dramatic reversal of these phenomena with complete removal of wheat from the diet.

(For clarity, I am not only referring to gluten sensitivity, the immune reaction gone haywire that plagues people with celiac disease. Celiac disease is indeed another variety of wheat-induced hell on earth, but there’s far more to it than that.)

Among the effects I’ve seen with wheat removal:

--Increased clarity of thought—I can vouch for this effect personally. Focus, concentration, the capacity for prolonged application of effort is restored with elimination of wheat.

--ADHD—Marked improvement in attention deficit disorder can occur in children and adults with this focus-depriving condition. Elimination of sugars and cornstarch may be necessary for full effect. While it doesn’t seem to work in everybody, the effect is powerful enough⎯and the implications so profound⎯that it is worthy of consideration in any child with this condition.

--Improved bowel health⎯Many people plagued by chronic bloating, diarrhea, and urgency experience complete relief. In its most extreme form, it is expressed as celiac disease. But there are a larger number of people who do not have celiac who are plagued by this lesser form of intestinal intolerance.

--Weight loss⎯Patients have told me that they were actually frightened when they eliminated wheat, meaning weight dropped so rapidly that they thought something was wrong. Nothing is wrong. The weight loss simply represents the removal of this bizarre, unphysiologic trigger of appetite, blood sugar, insulin, and weight gain.

Relevant to heart health, wheat elimination effects include:

--LDL cholesterol reduction⎯Yes, I know that it’s not what the “official” agencies say. “Reduce fat, reduce saturated fat and cholesterol will drop.” That’s barely true; reductions of saturated fat reduce LDL cholesterol, but rarely more than 20 mg/dl. In contrast, elimination of wheat yields LDL reductions of 40, 50, even 100 mg/dl. And the type of LDL reduced is the small particle variety, the kind mostly likely to lead to heart disease. (Cutting fat generally reduces large LDL, the more benign form.)

--Triglyceride reduction⎯Triglyceride reductions of 50, 100, even 1000 mg/dl can be achieved with elimination of wheat (though elimination of cornstarch, sugars, and other processed carbohydrates may be necessary for full benefit).

--HDL increase⎯A variable response, but increase of 5-10 mg/dl are common.

--Reduced inflammation⎯This phenomenon expresses itself in a number of ways, including dramatic reductions of the common inflammatory marker, c-reactive protein. While the media focuses on the JUPITER trial of rosuvastatin’s (Crestor) ability to reduce CRP 50-60%, wheat elimination can easily match this⎯without drugs.

What's more, you just feel better. Less commonly, I've seen arthritis (both common osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis), skin rashes, and sleep disorders improve. I've had pre-diabetics become non-pre-diabetics, diabetics become non-diabetics.

***************

What is worse then sugar?

There are a number of ways to view the blood sugar-raising or insulin-provoking effect of foods.

One way is glycemic index (GI), simply a measure of how high blood sugar is raised by a standard quantity of a food compared to table sugar. Another is glycemic load (GL), a combination (multiplied) of glycemic index and carbohydrate content per serving.

Table sugar has a GI of 65, a GL of 65.

Obviously, table sugar is not good for you. The content of white table sugar in the American diet has exploded over the last 100 years, totaling over 150 lb per year for the average person. (Humans are not meant to consume any.)

What is the GI of Rice Krispies cereal, organic or not? GI = 82-- higher than table sugar. GL is 72, also higher than table sugar.

How about Corn Flakes? GI 81, GL 70--also both higher than sugar.

How about those rice cakes that many dieters will use to quell hunger? GI 78, GL 64.

How about Shredded Wheat cereal? GI 75, GL 62.

All of the above foods with GI's and GL's that match or exceed that of table sugar are made of wheat and cornstarch. Some, like Shredded Wheat cereal and rice cakes, don't even have any added sugar.

Stay clear of these foods if you have low HDL, high triglycerides, high blood sugar, or small LDL. Or, for that matter, if you are human.

Keep the eloquent words of New York University nutritionist, Marion Nestle, author of the book, Food Politics, in mind:

“Food companies—just like companies that sell cigarettes, pharmaceuticals, or any other commodity—routinely place the needs of stock holders over considerations of public health. Food companies will make and market any product that sells, regardless of its nutritional value or its effect on health. In this regard, food companies hardly differ from cigarette companies. They lobby Congress to eliminate regulations perceived as unfavorable; they press federal regulatory agencies not to enforce such regulations; and when they don’t like regulatory decisions, they file lawsuits. Like cigarette companies, food companies co-opt food and nutrition experts by supporting professional organizations and research, and they expand sales by marketing directly to children, members of minority groups, and people in develop countries—whether or not the products are likely to improve people’s diets.”   

****
[COLOR="red"]Wheat, the nicotine of food[/COLOR]
Yes, we know that wheat contributes to creating small LDL, drops HDL, raises triglycerides, and VLDL. We also know it indirectly slows the clearance of after-eating fats from the blood (curious, I know). Wheat products also increase inflammation (C-reactive protein), raise blood sugar, and contribute tremendously to diabetes.

What many people don't know is that wheat products also have an addictive quality: have one donut and you want another. It's true for bread, breakfast cereals, pretzels, cookies, etc. How many times have you had just one Oreo cookie?

Curiously, elimination of wheat products, unlike elimination of nicotine, usually causes the cravings to disappear. In other words, if you stop smoking cigarettes, the desire to smoke doesn't go away. With wheat products, the often overwhelming desire for more wheat products often just goes away.

But most people are simply unable to dramatically reduce or eliminate wheat products from their daily diet and therefore struggle each and every day with excessive cravings for bagels, donuts, cookies, breads, etc.

Try this useful experiment: Eliminate wheat products for a month and see what happens. Most people drop blood pressure, lose the tummy excess, feel more alert, see a drop in blood sugar, experience improvements in lipoproteins, and regain control over appetite.

Bring it on · 03-15-2009, 06:01 PM

Chantel,

Thanks for the run down on Wheat. I will definately read up on this. Wow, All this time I thought that whole wheat was good for you.

Again, Thanks for posting.

Stevie Renee · 03-15-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricardolowcarbo

Chantel,

Thanks for the run down on Wheat. I will definately read up on this. Wow, All this time I thought that whole wheat was good for you.

Again, Thanks for posting.

The American Heart Association would have you think so Rich.
Another spin we have ingrained in our heads.

03-03-2009, 06:10 AM	#1
SJN02 MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,625 Gallery: SJN02 Stats: 227 WOE: VLC Start Date: July 8, 09 (after a million starts)	LDL Question I did not see this cholesterol board until now so I will copy my post from another thread. My LDL was 172 my total was 238. I don't know what my HDL (I will see that today when I pick up a copy)was as they just told me these 2 numbers. They want me to take Zetia. Can I lower my LDL with just taking Niacin? If so how much should I take and what is the non-flushing? I should add too that I am on BP medicine too. I am going to be losing health insurance and hate to add another prescription to my bills.

03-04-2009, 09:18 AM	#13
Stevie Renee Way too much time on my hands! Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 10,999 Blog Entries: 1 Gallery: Stevie Renee Stats: 24/8-6/6 (240/158.5/150) WOE: Low Carb, moderate fat, portion control Start Date: July 2000	SJNo2, morning First I just want to give you a hug and say I get the budget issue. My mom was a single mother for years upon years and we had a low budget. As a result, my child hood had lots of cheap junk to gobble up. I blame her for my sweet tooth - all kidding aside, trying to find sales, using coupons, etc, I would ensure there are eggs, hamburger, hopefully some veggies, cheese in the mix. The thing that is impertive to remember, when you cut the carbs, and try not to go on and off, the lab results will reflect in your favor. My Dh is a well, a yo-yoer - however right now he is doing very well on very low carb (again) and is dropping weight - his LDL was not great- doc wants him on meds. But - I think he is finally getting it. He cannot yo-yo - he must be consistant with diet. He always exercised. Thats no biggie to him. But the diet - well thats the kicker. Although - I do think some people have inheritantly high numbers. (I am not an expert. I am just learning actually. - so my two cents is just that - two cents of an opinion) Fish oil..this is my experience. If its really nasty fish oil burps, maybe its a bad quality. I would try differant things but in my humble opinon, look for a sale and try them out. You need to look at the EPA/DHA amount. At the end of the day, I take close to 3000 mg. That equates to 6 fish oils. I buy all around. But I believe in fish oil. Diet - I believe wheat products are worse then sugar - now sugar is bad - yes - but really, processed food with wheat, corn, high fructose corn syrup. Its gotta go. This is part of the big bad wolf of LDL small particle, high cholestrol. Again - thats my understanding. You can reverse ratios - you can reverse heart disease. I have seen it on Dr. Davis web site. It takes work, it take a plan. Now my brother who is an i-d-i-o-t (did I just type that? Well for the record, he is my half brother) had a heart attack, got a stint, takes meds out the nose and guess what? hasnt changed a dang thing. So yes, he is an i-d-i-o-t. lol 36 years Young!(just a babe!). My husband is 37. lol - I robbed the cradle. I am turning 46 this year. lol - but my cholesteral isbetter then his because I have low carbed a wee bit better through the years. lol- and I was not sneaking wheat products in at the dang drive through - lol. Not perfect, I have a problem with chocolate.lol Niacin..like Wild and I are talking about, getting a perfect balance is not easy but is is a work in progress. I think the niacin is a great idea..read all that stuff. I am going to try the naicin for giggles - just too see. I am going to get my work done in a year or less. Just to test it out. I am nervous however, of the flsuhbut I will take it with fish oil, water and bedtime. The niacin can take a year to really work! And you cycle it. But..it looks like he mentions getting a liver test when going over 1000mg. I am game for that. Are you on induction or whats going on right now with your eats? Last edited by Stevie Renee; 03-04-2009 at 09:20 AM..

03-09-2009, 07:22 AM	#16
mamagiff Bike Tart Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: right down the road from Bong Recreation Area! Posts: 38,796 Gallery: mamagiff WOE: Switched to Atkins Start Date: 3/24/08	For fish oil...get the kind that say "enteric coated"...no fish burps ever! I hate fish and this was recommended to me. I have been taking this kind for a couple of years now. Still not having success lowering the LDL but I'm not stressing about it because I have a higher HDL and low tris with a good ratio. I've made more changes in my food so I'm hoping that will help. I've always exercised a lot so adding more in that area won't make a difference. I have also switched to SloNiacin because I had been taking the flush free but when I read that it wasn't helpful (and it wasn't for me) I switched. I'm hoping the next time my bloodwork shows improvement... __________________ Linda We gladly feast on those who would subdue us! - Addams Family Creed My Facebook

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03-03-2009, 09:31 AM	#3
SJN02 MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,625 Gallery: SJN02 Stats: 227 WOE: VLC Start Date: July 8, 09 (after a million starts)	WOW! Ok, so niacin is not the thing to take to lower LDL then. Now what??

03-03-2009, 02:16 PM	#6
Stevie Renee Way too much time on my hands! Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 10,999 Blog Entries: 1 Gallery: Stevie Renee Stats: 24/8-6/6 (240/158.5/150) WOE: Low Carb, moderate fat, portion control Start Date: July 2000	Something to read if you are so inclined Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - Dr Davis... When is LDL cholesterol NOT LDL cholesterol? Darlene had a high LDL cholesterol, at times as high as 200 mg/dl. Her primary care doctor first tried Mevacor, then Pravachol, then Zocor, then Lipitor. Every statin drug failed to reduce Darlene's LDL below 160 mg/dl, even when maximum doses were used. The higher doses also resulted in nearly intolerable muscle aches and weakness. When we sent Darlene's blood sample off for lipoprotein analysis, a surprise came back: she had a high lipoprotein(a), or Lp(a). This explained a lot. LDL cholesterol is not always just LDL cholesterol. One of the particles that can masquerade as LDL is Lp(a). Darlene's story is typical of many people who've had high cholesterol levels poorly responsive to the statin drugs. That's because their LDL conceals Lp(a), which does not respond to these agents. LDL cholesterol does drop some because there's also some real LDL mixed in. A poor response to statin agents or to nutritional strategies to reduce LDL is a tip-off that Lp(a) may be hidden. The answer: just measure Lp(a)! If you and your doctor don't measure it, you won't know whether or not you have it. Rather than a statin drug, we put Darlen on niacin. Not only did her Lp(a) drop, but her LDL also plummeted.

03-03-2009, 03:23 PM	#7
SJN02 MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,625 Gallery: SJN02 Stats: 227 WOE: VLC Start Date: July 8, 09 (after a million starts)	Thanks for the info. I will have them test that in 3 months when I get re-checked. I picked up my copies today. I don't understand all this. It is so confusing to me. Here are my numbers: Total chol: 238 Triglyceride: 134 HDL: 39 LDL: 172 My ratio: 6.10 Can someone help me understand these numbers? I was reading in another thread that the LDL means nothing. Is that true? That is why my dr wants me to take zetia.

03-03-2009, 04:46 PM	#8
Stevie Renee Way too much time on my hands! Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 10,999 Blog Entries: 1 Gallery: Stevie Renee Stats: 24/8-6/6 (240/158.5/150) WOE: Low Carb, moderate fat, portion control Start Date: July 2000	Well - for me - LDL is important if you know your particle size. If you don't, then rushing on to meds is crazy. I would ask a few questions.. Are you on supplements like fish oil? You need a good fish oil ( in my humble opinion) every day. The goal is to get your daily intake of EPH/DHA up to 1800 or higher - Also, go to heartscanblog and research the med. I would not jump to meds. I would look get very proactive! Its very common for docs to prescribe meds without really being an advocate into other alternatives. Exercise, wheat free, corn free, processed food free diet - eat some good fats including saturated. In my untrained eye, your tri's are up, and need to come down fish oil is a start along with diet. If you have been eating the typical American Diet - shudder - even the so called healthy stuff like Cheerios -this effects your tris -heck it effects all of the numbers. HDL - too low. Guess what? Fish oil, dark chocolate, red wine - stuff like that can help! Again -go read heartscanblog - goal of HDL is 60 -maybe higher? Ratio - too high. I think it should be under 3 - but again, don't panic. You can change these numbers. I wonder - how long have you been low carbing and pls forgive me..do you go off plan often? Are you female? Male? So many questions. I am sure others will pop in and give their 2 cents. From what I have read...optimum is 60-60-60 - HDL, LDL, TRI. Gives you an idea. I am sold on Dr. William Davis so others may not be..and have other optimum numbers. In the end..you gotta do what makes you sleep at night and make your own choices.

03-04-2009, 09:00 AM	#12
Stevie Renee Way too much time on my hands! Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 10,999 Blog Entries: 1 Gallery: Stevie Renee Stats: 24/8-6/6 (240/158.5/150) WOE: Low Carb, moderate fat, portion control Start Date: July 2000	Wild - interesting. Thanks for sharing. I re-read the naicin stuff and he said it can take a year for it to work. And yes, I agree, with a lot of what you said about the fluctuations. I had my nunbers tested - still waiting for results - and will see what that IDL is. I will see what I can dig up. My ratio is 2.7 or 2.4 - something like that but my LDL is 147. I am waiting for particle size - but regardless, I am like you - a low carber. Its the only way to go for me also.

03-05-2009, 05:58 AM	#14
SJN02 MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 2,625 Gallery: SJN02 Stats: 227 WOE: VLC Start Date: July 8, 09 (after a million starts)	Chantel - Thank you so much for your help/advice. I will get some fish oil and niacin this weekend. And I will try to eat lc. I do always have meat, veggie and carb for the meals I make, so I will just keep the carbs away from me. I really appreciate all your help!!!! I have to get re-checked in 3 months (if we still have insurance) so I will post back and let you know how it is going. Thanks again!!

03-05-2009, 09:01 AM	#15
Stevie Renee Way too much time on my hands! Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 10,999 Blog Entries: 1 Gallery: Stevie Renee Stats: 24/8-6/6 (240/158.5/150) WOE: Low Carb, moderate fat, portion control Start Date: July 2000	You are welcome. I am a work in progress to so dont think you are alone. Alot of us are striving to get it right and live long, healthy lives. Talk soon.

03-09-2009, 09:52 AM	#18
robing0110 Senior LCF Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: oregon Posts: 223 Gallery: robing0110 Stats: 226/170/105 WOE: Zero Carb Start Date: 9/14/08	Coconut oil is excellent for lowering cholesterol

03-14-2009, 04:21 PM	#21
Bring it on MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,553 Gallery: Bring it on Stats: Too much/Much Better/ Lean and Muscular WOE: Carb Rotations Start Date: November 2008	Chantel, I have heard you say that Wheat has to go in a few different threads. Why is wheat so bad and is whole wheat the same? I am particularly concerned because My wife thinks that whole wheat bread is better for us. I don't eat bread but my daughter from time to time will have a pb sandwhich. I also have not been checking labels for Wheat.

03-15-2009, 05:51 PM	#22
Stevie Renee Way too much time on my hands! Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 10,999 Blog Entries: 1 Gallery: Stevie Renee Stats: 24/8-6/6 (240/158.5/150) WOE: Low Carb, moderate fat, portion control Start Date: July 2000	Richard, If you have her read Dr. Davis blog, he goes into the wheat he!! on several posts. A couple of examples below....(his blog is in my signature) It is very bad. Also, I think Taubes goes into it, chapter 7. Don't quote me, in the book Good Calories, Bad Calories. Wheat, processed foods are bad for the heart, body. (CHEERIOS IS THE KISS OF DEATH.lol) Lots and lots of the low carb books talk about it. I check most labels but just teaching the hubby. Also, no beer. Its wheat! lol - If I were to give my son bread, I would buy him bread with no food dye, no high fructose corn syrup. So that is something your wife should look at. Also, perhaps find bread with protein in it. Good luck on that! Also, I would buy only natural peanut butter and dye free jelly. Its not easy trying to get a pbj sandwhich healthful. My son has had his share up until last year. Now he is close to grain free with an occassional pizza or Subway. [COLOR="red"]WHEAT HE!![/COLOR] Can including wheat in your diet create hell on earth? Was The Inferno nothing more than Danté’s prediction for the state of the U.S. diet circa 2009? I’m kidding on The Inferno allusion, but the American diet nonetheless sure does create an inferno of unhealthy phenomena. If we define hell on earth as constant, nagging pain and discomfort; energy depleted sufficient to impair daily function; chronic bloating and diarrhea; leg swelling, peculiar rashes; progression of a multitude of diseases ranging from annoying all the way to fatal . . . well, that’s a pretty bleak picture. I have indeed witnessed it all. Inclusion of wheat products in the human diet in many (not all--I'd estimate 70% of people) yields devastating health effects. In a few, it shortens life. In the majority, it leads to a slow, miserable hell of inflammatory diseases like arthritis, coronary disease, and cancer. I have also witnessed dramatic reversal of these phenomena with complete removal of wheat from the diet. (For clarity, I am not only referring to gluten sensitivity, the immune reaction gone haywire that plagues people with celiac disease. Celiac disease is indeed another variety of wheat-induced hell on earth, but there’s far more to it than that.) Among the effects I’ve seen with wheat removal: --Increased clarity of thought—I can vouch for this effect personally. Focus, concentration, the capacity for prolonged application of effort is restored with elimination of wheat. --ADHD—Marked improvement in attention deficit disorder can occur in children and adults with this focus-depriving condition. Elimination of sugars and cornstarch may be necessary for full effect. While it doesn’t seem to work in everybody, the effect is powerful enough⎯and the implications so profound⎯that it is worthy of consideration in any child with this condition. --Improved bowel health⎯Many people plagued by chronic bloating, diarrhea, and urgency experience complete relief. In its most extreme form, it is expressed as celiac disease. But there are a larger number of people who do not have celiac who are plagued by this lesser form of intestinal intolerance. --Weight loss⎯Patients have told me that they were actually frightened when they eliminated wheat, meaning weight dropped so rapidly that they thought something was wrong. Nothing is wrong. The weight loss simply represents the removal of this bizarre, unphysiologic trigger of appetite, blood sugar, insulin, and weight gain. Relevant to heart health, wheat elimination effects include: --LDL cholesterol reduction⎯Yes, I know that it’s not what the “official” agencies say. “Reduce fat, reduce saturated fat and cholesterol will drop.” That’s barely true; reductions of saturated fat reduce LDL cholesterol, but rarely more than 20 mg/dl. In contrast, elimination of wheat yields LDL reductions of 40, 50, even 100 mg/dl. And the type of LDL reduced is the small particle variety, the kind mostly likely to lead to heart disease. (Cutting fat generally reduces large LDL, the more benign form.) --Triglyceride reduction⎯Triglyceride reductions of 50, 100, even 1000 mg/dl can be achieved with elimination of wheat (though elimination of cornstarch, sugars, and other processed carbohydrates may be necessary for full benefit). --HDL increase⎯A variable response, but increase of 5-10 mg/dl are common. --Reduced inflammation⎯This phenomenon expresses itself in a number of ways, including dramatic reductions of the common inflammatory marker, c-reactive protein. While the media focuses on the JUPITER trial of rosuvastatin’s (Crestor) ability to reduce CRP 50-60%, wheat elimination can easily match this⎯without drugs. What's more, you just feel better. Less commonly, I've seen arthritis (both common osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis), skin rashes, and sleep disorders improve. I've had pre-diabetics become non-pre-diabetics, diabetics become non-diabetics. ************* What is worse then sugar? There are a number of ways to view the blood sugar-raising or insulin-provoking effect of foods. One way is glycemic index (GI), simply a measure of how high blood sugar is raised by a standard quantity of a food compared to table sugar. Another is glycemic load (GL), a combination (multiplied) of glycemic index and carbohydrate content per serving. Table sugar has a GI of 65, a GL of 65. Obviously, table sugar is not good for you. The content of white table sugar in the American diet has exploded over the last 100 years, totaling over 150 lb per year for the average person. (Humans are not meant to consume any.) What is the GI of Rice Krispies cereal, organic or not? GI = 82-- higher than table sugar. GL is 72, also higher than table sugar. How about Corn Flakes? GI 81, GL 70--also both higher than sugar. How about those rice cakes that many dieters will use to quell hunger? GI 78, GL 64. How about Shredded Wheat cereal? GI 75, GL 62. All of the above foods with GI's and GL's that match or exceed that of table sugar are made of wheat and cornstarch. Some, like Shredded Wheat cereal and rice cakes, don't even have any added sugar. Stay clear of these foods if you have low HDL, high triglycerides, high blood sugar, or small LDL. Or, for that matter, if you are human. Keep the eloquent words of New York University nutritionist, Marion Nestle, author of the book, Food Politics, in mind: “Food companies—just like companies that sell cigarettes, pharmaceuticals, or any other commodity—routinely place the needs of stock holders over considerations of public health. Food companies will make and market any product that sells, regardless of its nutritional value or its effect on health. In this regard, food companies hardly differ from cigarette companies. They lobby Congress to eliminate regulations perceived as unfavorable; they press federal regulatory agencies not to enforce such regulations; and when they don’t like regulatory decisions, they file lawsuits. Like cigarette companies, food companies co-opt food and nutrition experts by supporting professional organizations and research, and they expand sales by marketing directly to children, members of minority groups, and people in develop countries—whether or not the products are likely to improve people’s diets.”    ** [COLOR="red"]Wheat, the nicotine of food[/COLOR] Yes, we know that wheat contributes to creating small LDL, drops HDL, raises triglycerides, and VLDL. We also know it indirectly slows the clearance of after-eating fats from the blood (curious, I know). Wheat products also increase inflammation (C-reactive protein), raise blood sugar, and contribute tremendously to diabetes. What many people don't know is that wheat products also have an addictive quality: have one donut and you want another. It's true for bread, breakfast cereals, pretzels, cookies, etc. How many times have you had just one Oreo cookie? Curiously, elimination of wheat products, unlike elimination of nicotine, usually causes the cravings to disappear. In other words, if you stop smoking cigarettes, the desire to smoke doesn't go away. With wheat products, the often overwhelming desire for more wheat products often just goes away. But most people are simply unable to dramatically reduce or eliminate wheat products from their daily diet and therefore struggle each and every day with excessive cravings for bagels, donuts, cookies, breads, etc. Try this useful experiment: Eliminate wheat products for a month and see what happens. Most people drop blood pressure, lose the tummy excess, feel more alert, see a drop in blood sugar, experience improvements in lipoproteins, and regain control over appetite.

03-15-2009, 06:01 PM	#23
Bring it on MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,553 Gallery: Bring it on Stats: Too much/Much Better/ Lean and Muscular WOE: Carb Rotations Start Date: November 2008	Chantel, Thanks for the run down on Wheat. I will definately read up on this. Wow, All this time I thought that whole wheat was good for you. Again, Thanks for posting.