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Old 06-02-2009, 11:28 AM   #751
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Yeah, I do it as much to keep things different each week as to keep carbs down. Like to keep the old body guessing! Keeps it from getting in a rut.

I'm thinking I'll move to Pre-maintenance when I get to 145 (assuming I ever do!)
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Old 06-02-2009, 11:50 AM   #752
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Hmmmmmmmm....well, maybe then I'm not technically on OWL but rather am pretty much staying on Induction?

I had assumed that because I am technically past Induction and therefore can have peanuts and the like, I am in OWL since I am trying to lose weight. But if staying at the 20g carbs level isn't OWL, that's cool, I just didn't realize it was that particular! I was thinking of it as: If you're done with Induction, and you're trying to lose more weight, then your weight loss is ongoing.

Well, whatever I'm doing, it seems less confusing to me as opposed to more, because I don't have to worry about net carbs and because I know what top number I want to stick with.

I'll skulk around and find a thread that's like mine, or if not, I'll start one! Thanks for the advice on OWL!
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:43 PM   #753
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NO, Mel, I didn't mean to make you feel the least bit unwelcome. I was merely expressing that I'm not familiar with '72, but I have the vague idea that you get to add whatever you want as long as you count the carbs. I just wanted to get a handle on what YOUR approach is so I know what to expect and how to support your goals...make sense? Don't feel you need to go to a different thread!

Tones don't come off the way we intend them to sometimes. Stupid internet!
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:47 PM   #754
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Oh...I gotcha. I thought you meant I'm not technically doing OWL! Which I don't guess I am, really, since I'm not adding carbs each week, etc.

Me too on the vague idea of adding stuff on. I do know the rungs but Dr. Atkins loses me at Berries...because I am terrified of going there again...TRIGGER CITY. I guess that's why I really don't want to do the rungs.

And the reason I want to stay at 20g is simply because it feels good and I have no problem with it...I don't feel like I'm restricting anything...so I figure, if it ain't broke and all that.

I'm sorry...it must have been my tone that came off weird because I didn't feel unwelcome at all!!! No worries!
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Old 06-02-2009, 12:54 PM   #755
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No, I thought I might have sounded snooty, like "Oh, THAT's not OWL!" ...which, I think it really is different in the other book. That doesn't mean it's not OWL.

As for the 20 grams, listen, you're not getting any flak from me about that because more days than not (*whispers*) mine are around 20 or in the low 20s (after subtracting fiber). If it's enough food, and it's satisfying food for you, and you're happy with the amount you're eating, then it's entirely up to you. As for triggers, I agree you should stay away from berries if they're a problem food for you--it's not important to eat them. You can get vitamin C and other important antioxidants and nutrients from other sources!
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Old 06-02-2009, 01:45 PM   #756
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Oh awesome...good to hear someone is doing the same thing...and someone obviously very successful. I hope to follow in your shoes shortly. Or your smaller jeans size. Thanks...and I have heard the same thing about Vitamin C. So I may pick up a li'l bottle of that...to go with my intestine-friendly magnesium.
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Old 06-02-2009, 02:17 PM   #757
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I get more than enough vitamin C, A, and many others just from the food I eat (as opposed to relying on vitamin supplements). Cauliflower has tons of C, did you know that?

Mel, do you use ****** or anything like that? I find it helpful because I can take a look at my full nutritional breakdown at a glance.
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Old 06-02-2009, 04:17 PM   #758
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Hey, peanutte...I didn't do ****** for about a week, but usually, I do. I plugged in my values just today, actually! Someone mentioned that keeping carbs at low levels rather than doing the gradual increase to find the CCLL could mean that ultimately, one would not be able to EVER up ones carbs without gaining...to paraphrase. Now that scares me...not sure why when I'm so happy this way, but it does. So...maybe I should creep up the carbs after all.............?

Anyway, so far today I'm at 85% fat (holy shoot!!! really?--rechecking--Yep), 8% carbs and 7% protein.
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Old 06-02-2009, 05:32 PM   #759
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How many grams of protein?! That seems really low on your protein percentage, missy! Don't make me shake my finger at you!

I don't know if I believe that about "keeping your carbs low means you will never be able to go above that amount". I think what that more accurately represents is that people who keep their carbs really low for a long time may eventually freak out and start eating like they did before...which means adding large increments of carbs indiscriminately, or jumping from 20 grams a day to suddenly eating toast and sandwiches and fruit again. THAT would cause problems, certainly.

Some people really can eat quite a few more carbs BUT they also exercise more. 2big has discussed this at length.

I'd like to end up at around 40-60 grams but I have to find out if I can do that and maintain. That is a step I will take later.
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Old 06-02-2009, 05:38 PM   #760
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Peanutte, that's 15.8 grams of protein so far...but I have only eaten 900 calories. For dinner I'm having a few chicken drumsticks. That will bring my protein up.

Today I had:

2 Rev Rolls with cream cheese
a piece of coconut and almond bark
2 large servings cole slaw
heavy whipped cream

I usually have much more meat than this...I just haven't been able to get into my kitchen because I had my counter installers here all day. I had to just literally grab/sneak things out of my fridge from under tarps.

I highly prefer bacon and eggs with green peppers for breakfast! Once these people are gone from my kitchen (in about a week, they say) I'll be able to cook in the mornings once again.

I actually was thinking of making up some eggs tonight and refrigerating them so I can just microwave them tomorrow morning quickly.
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Old 06-02-2009, 05:40 PM   #761
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Originally Posted by junkfoodmonkey View Post
And like you, I'm not "piggybacking", like beans, fruit, nuts, yogurt all in one week.
Would you believe all the times I read DANDER, I never, ever thought of this? That you don't have to/aren't necessarily supposed to "add in" the next rung foods alongside the previous rung foods???

D'oh.
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Old 06-03-2009, 01:00 AM   #762
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Would you believe all the times I read DANDER, I never, ever thought of this? That you don't have to/aren't necessarily supposed to "add in" the next rung foods alongside the previous rung foods???

D'oh.
Yeah, I eventully twigged that just because I now can have some new food doesn't mean I have to have it every single day along with all the other ones I'm allowed to have.

Some days I might have something from one of the higher rungs, like beans, or an apple, but nothing from one of the lower rungs. Some rungs I missed out altogether. Like alcohol. I chose not to bother with that, barring special occasions. If something on a rung is a trigger for you, skip it. Like "berries and melons." Berries I'm fine with, melon - I might as well eat candy! So that's a hunger trigger for me and I don't eat any. On the other hand, I can eat a small apple from the "other fruits" rung with no issues.

Most of my carbs still come from veggies most of the time And like Peanutte there'll be days my carbs are way down around 20.
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Old 06-03-2009, 01:11 AM   #763
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Hmmmmmmmm....well, maybe then I'm not technically on OWL but rather am pretty much staying on Induction?

I had assumed that because I am technically past Induction and therefore can have peanuts and the like, I am in OWL since I am trying to lose weight. But if staying at the 20g carbs level isn't OWL, that's cool, I just didn't realize it was that particular! I was thinking of it as: If you're done with Induction, and you're trying to lose more weight, then your weight loss is ongoing.

Well, whatever I'm doing, it seems less confusing to me as opposed to more, because I don't have to worry about net carbs and because I know what top number I want to stick with.

I'll skulk around and find a thread that's like mine, or if not, I'll start one! Thanks for the advice on OWL!
I personally think that even if one stays at Induction level carbs and eating Induction legal foods, that once the two weeks has passed by default you're in OWL anyway. After all it means "Ongoing Weight Loss" and hopefully that's what's happening, even if you haven't started working the rungs yet.

That's because I don't think of Induction purely as the regime, but also as that initial two week time period where you get the Induction effect of rapid water-weight loss. Once past that, even on the same foods and same levels of carbs you don't lose as fast, possibly no faster than someone who is going up the rungs. So you're not technically "in" Induction any longer, even if you are doing the same regime.

But that's just a personal view on it! It's why it bugs me when people say "Should I restart Induction?" when they have a cheat during the first two weeks, because I don't think you can "restart" it like that. Eating a bagel doesn't reset your body to what is was the day you started Induction. You can do it a bit longer to compensate, but you can't "restart" it.
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Old 06-03-2009, 05:44 AM   #764
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you guys are such an inspiration to me. I JUST got DANDR sent to me today and am re reading it - yay! I'm contemplating "starting over" - not totally, but going back to induction for maybe 5 days (I got ketone strips too, though I think I peed on the wrong end lol) and then really doing OWL by the book (like not adding back those peanuts til I get to legumes lol). I feel like I'm adding too many things at once and not "removing" things as I go. So I've added more veggies up to 20g, then yogurt to 25, then nuts to 25 (didn't go up really, just more variety) and then beans to 30g, but was still eating yogurt while eating beans etc. What you guys seem to be doing is different and I think for long term maintenance that will be better to show me what works and what doesn't.
I think re-reading will help me get a better handle on the specifics.
we actually do it the way you have been doing it keeping the previous added foods while adding new ones to find out CCLL then once we know our stopping point we can swap out some of the lower rung carbs to see how we react on the next level until we have tried all the food rungs. Or we can stop right there and just mix up what we have. Once you conquor a rung you are not limited to just 5 net grams of carbs of it a week for life.

If your CCLL is 35 you could have in addition to the induction 3 cups of veggies 10 more carbs of those veggies and 10 grams of fresh dairy today and tomorrow have just 5 added grams of veggies with 15 grams of legumes and dairy. once you conquor a rung you can have as much or as little of it you want each day as long as the increased amount of it doesn't effect your craving controls and weight loss.

What we remove as we add back the carbs is a little bit of our fat total percent such as you add more veggies to the induction salad but not more dressing so you will have a lower fat% in your total cause your carbs went up

Quote:
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Would you believe all the times I read DANDER, I never, ever thought of this? That you don't have to/aren't necessarily supposed to "add in" the next rung foods alongside the previous rung foods???

D'oh.
what you and peanut are describing is called modified OWL holding your carb count artificially below your CCLL while testing the OWL rungs.
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Old 06-03-2009, 05:48 AM   #765
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2big, thanks as always for explaining that to me! I'm just getting into the "Induction" part of the book (I keep falling asleep while reading it, I've been sick now for 2 weeks and can't get rid of this cough or feeling lethargic).
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:19 AM   #766
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That's because I don't think of Induction purely as the regime, but also as that initial two week time period where you get the Induction effect of rapid water-weight loss. Once past that, even on the same foods and same levels of carbs you don't lose as fast, possibly no faster than someone who is going up the rungs. So you're not technically "in" Induction any longer, even if you are doing the same regime.

But that's just a personal view on it! It's why it bugs me when people say "Should I restart Induction?" when they have a cheat during the first two weeks, because I don't think you can "restart" it like that. Eating a bagel doesn't reset your body to what is was the day you started Induction. You can do it a bit longer to compensate, but you can't "restart" it.
I agree with all of this, junkfoodmonkey.

Quote:
what you and peanut are describing is called modified OWL holding your carb count artificially below your CCLL while testing the OWL rungs.
I get this, intellectually, but I have a slight objection to it on the surface. I'm still losing at a reasonable rate of an average of a pound a week. I don't want to slow that down, because I still have about 16 or more pounds to lose, so if I'm losing consistently on 25 grams, isn't that basically my CCLL? I could go up to 30 for a week and then 35, but I'm not in a place where I care to gain a pound or two via experimentation and find out I have to take two steps back. I don't feel like I have the wiggle room to do that yet.

Quote:
What we remove as we add back the carbs is a little bit of our fat total percent such as you add more veggies to the induction salad but not more dressing so you will have a lower fat% in your total cause your carbs went up
I DO get this, and I understand it completely.

Last edited by peanutte; 06-03-2009 at 08:21 AM..
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:12 AM   #767
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Thank you, junkfoodmonkey--that makes complete sense.

Peanutte, you're doing beautifully...did you ever have that post-induction stall? Just curious.

Who here knows his or her CCLL? Would you be willing to post it? I'm curious about that too.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:15 AM   #768
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I think I like your way of doing it peanutte better than mine lol. I just put down the book and a few things caught my eye:
1. I could definetely stand to do Induction levels a while longer, for at least 10 more pounds.
2. I think testing foods one at a time may help me more figure out what works and what doesn't, and
3. I think sticking around at each "rung" for maybe 2-3 weeks before switching out foods would be more helpful.

I'm glad we have this group here, seeing how people are doing different things that work for them is really helping me with my own plan. I personally have "gotten over" my craving for oatmeal and now would be happy with fairly regular half servings of yogurt, beans 1-2x a week and a half an apple every couple weeks, at least until pre-maintenance.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:22 AM   #769
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did you ever have that post-induction stall? Just curious.

If I recall correctly, Mel, there were two or three weeks where nothing was happening, back in February, and as I remember, what I did was cut out caffeinated coffee and the weight loss resumed.

People seem awfully casual about caffeine use, but it's as much of a drug as nicotine or alcohol, and yet it's legal, so nobody cares. Don't take me for some wacko who's against all forms of personality-altering drugs--I'm not, when used in the right context--but I find it interesting that far, far more people's daily personalities are significantly altered by their caffeine intake than pot or alcohol (meaning, the vast majority of people are not walking around intoxicated or high all day long). So many people claim they simply cannot function without their coffee--they can't work as well, they can't perform as well, and it's a part of their everyday life from the moment they wake up in the morning. Imagine saying that about any other drug. It interferes with people's sleep, it makes people insanely crabby when they come down from it, and it gives you a splitting withdrawal headache if you're used to drinking it and suddenly stop. But we don't consider it a drug. Just something to think about. (Disclaimer! I do not judge people's caffeine habits at all! I really don't. I just find it interesting to contrast the prevailing acceptance of caffeine against the puritanical attitudes toward other substances.)

But I didn't cut it out for that reason. I cut it out because I believe it affects insulin response and blood sugar levels and lo and behold, it's the only thing that has "stalled" me, albeit briefly and temporarily.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:27 AM   #770
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Thank you, junkfoodmonkey--that makes complete sense.

Peanutte, you're doing beautifully...did you ever have that post-induction stall? Just curious.

[COLOR="Red"]Who here knows his or her CCLL? Would you be willing to post it? I'm curious about that too[/COLOR].
I do I do

I actually have 2 different ones when I was OWLIng and going to the gym 3 days a week doing HIIT and 3 days doing the BFL lifting it was 115 net ( total minus fiber) when I had knee surgery and wasn't allowed to put my foot on the ground it dropped back to 45 net.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:28 AM   #771
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OMG I wanna be like 2big when I grow up.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:45 AM   #772
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I agree with all of this, junkfoodmonkey.



I get this, intellectually, but I have a slight objection to it on the surface. I'm still losing at a reasonable rate of an average of a pound a week. I don't want to slow that down, because I still have about 16 or more pounds to lose, so if I'm losing consistently on 25 grams, isn't that basically my CCLL? I could go up to 30 for a week and then 35, but I'm not in a place where I care to gain a pound or two via experimentation and find out I have to take two steps back. I don't feel like I have the wiggle room to do that yet.


CCLL is the carb limit at which you are one carb below your weight loss stopping point. You don't have to gain to find it as we are supposed to add 5 net grams of carbs on a rung and test the rung
did the foods effect our craving control
did they effect our weight loss
did the new total carb count effect our weight loss

so there is no need to gain 2 pounds to figure it out as adding back between 20-40 cals a day isn't going to add 2 pounds in a week. if you added that many pounds then more then likely you are having an immune system response to those foods provided it wasn't a TOM issue or a new to you exercise fluid retention neither.
All you do is remove the food and see what happens keeping your carb level the same. if the weight loss doesn't resume then you know that is your CCLM and need to back your eating amount below it.
Folk who follow Dr Atkins premaintenance rules and take 6 months to drop those last pounds are eating just below their CCLM and at their CCLL.

losing at a good clip is important to you so you eat further below your CCLL then you need to is all a modified OWL is. Some folk never add more then 20 and stay there to rung 9 enojing all the foods on the ladder without the higher total carbs.
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:26 AM   #773
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OMG I wanna be like 2big when I grow up.
HA HA HA Dovelette, me too.

'Morning, everybody. I'm still in my post-induction stall...I'm assuming. Bumped up to 173.6 (GOD I don't want to change my stats) for three days now. I know...three days is nothing. I'm holding on tight and riding it out!

How is everybody?
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:06 AM   #774
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I'm great! It's a beautiful sunny day and I'm about to embark upon some yard work.
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Old 06-04-2009, 11:14 AM   #775
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I'm still fighting a 2 week cough. The doctor tells me it's just dry and dusty here (and OMG is it HOT!) so get used to it lol. The only icky part is we don't have SF cough drops so til my mom sends me some, I'm stuck with whatever menthol stuff we can find. Oh well, the cough is preventing me from sleeping so I'd rather sleep!
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:02 PM   #776
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Sorry to hear you have a cough, Dove. That sucks.

I got my yard work done, and then it clouded over--so, perfect timing!
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:24 PM   #777
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Sorry to hear you have a cough, Dove. That sucks.

I got my yard work done, and then it clouded over--so, perfect timing!
I did yard work today too! That's one of my favorite things. I'm Mrs. Green Jeans (for anybody old enough to remember Captain Kangaroo).

My kids like to help me garden...my littlest picks one-inch green tomatoes and brings them to me, happily chanting, "No pick tomatoes. No pick tomatoes." LOL. Yeah, kid. That was the point. Until you picked them...

We had an overcast day here too and it was wonderful, because it was cool and breezy. My kids and I ran around for at least an hour. Now we're all settling down.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:25 PM   #778
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I'm still fighting a 2 week cough. The doctor tells me it's just dry and dusty here (and OMG is it HOT!) so get used to it lol. The only icky part is we don't have SF cough drops so til my mom sends me some, I'm stuck with whatever menthol stuff we can find. Oh well, the cough is preventing me from sleeping so I'd rather sleep!
How hot is it where you are?

Are you feeling any better?
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Old 06-04-2009, 09:34 PM   #779
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I did yard work today too! That's one of my favorite things. I'm Mrs. Green Jeans (for anybody old enough to remember Captain Kangaroo).
One more thing we have in common! Well, two things--I am old enough to remember Captain Kangaroo. Mostly I remember the Toothbrush Family. I still get that song in my head sometimes when I'm brushing my damn teeth!

Since you're new, Mel, let me explain a little tradition around here: Friday is my once-a-week weigh-in. Typically on a Thursday night, like right now, I will come in here and start making noises about how I feel like I haven't lost anything this week, and then in the morning I report back and go "Woo! I lost something!" But this week, I swear to God, I mean it--I really think I might be up a couple of pounds tomorrow because it's that awkward time in the middle of my cycle and I feel like I'm retaining water. My eating has been clean and right on target, so I won't worry about it if that happens.
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Old 06-05-2009, 02:07 AM   #780
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Rochester, NY
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WOE: Atkins OWL, Current HCG R1P2
Start Date: WLS 4/20/2004, Atkins 3/31/09, HCG 4/9/13
It's in the 90s right now for most of the day...the evenings/nights are in the 80s. I"m still coughing even though I've got the cough drops. They didn't have the meds I needed at the pharmacy so I have to wait for the morning boat to deliver it from the next island over.

I weighed in this morning and I'm finally moving in the right direction - 165 this morning. I think I'm going to stay at these levels for a bit before experimenting with so many foods. It's not like I don't eat a ton of variety. I make awesome main courses and veggie dishes every night, and my lunches and breakfasts are pretty varied as well.

I also think I'm going to focus on really really eating those 15g of veggies out of 20, and then just add in things I really want, like the yogurt and more veggies, and may save the beans for pre-maintenance. I was reading that in the book, that the stuff on the second half of the ladder, many folks won't be able to tolerate til PM, so I'm going to stick to the first half of the ladder until I hit maybe 155 or 150. I really wasn't ready for my weight loss to slow so much.

I'm tossing the alcohol as well...that is going to be difficult here but hopefully I'll stay strong lol.

Alright peanutte, so put us all to shame - what have ya lost? lol
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