weight lifting & carbs

[sky75]

Hello!
About 2 months ago, I started lifting weights with a personal trainer. He was very anti-low carb in the beginning, but thanks to me he's coming around.
One thing he's told me is that before and after heavy lifting your body NEEDS carbs. Studies have shown that when you eat high-glycemic carbs right after weight loss, they are used almost exclusively for muscle repair and not fat storage. I have definitely noticed a negative difference in my performance when I don't "carb up." How can I find the balance between enough carbs to get a good work out, without stalling my weight loss? And what are healthy, high-glycemic carbs? Is it possible to stay in ketosis on the days I weight train? I've heard of people doing it but haven't had any luck yet.

[Atkins_Nutritionist]

Studies show different things depending on what is written into the methodology and what the researchers are looking to find. You don't want to 'carb up', but you do want to find that healthy balance and that's what the Atkins Nutritional Approach is all about. Your body does need carbs, but it doesn't need high glycemic carbs. You have to tailor the diet to fit your needs, and if you are feeling better when you increase your carbs for strength training, then by all means do that. Ketosis doesn't define success. Why don't you post a menu and include when and what type of exercise you are doing.

[sky75]

Thanks for the response! This is my menu from yesterday, which was a weight lifting day.

Breakfast: 1 slice crustless hamburger quiche (aka Whitecastle Pie from Linida Sue's recipe's) (3 carbs)

Snack: Hood Carb Countdown Blueberry Yogurt (3 carbs)

Lunch: Meatloaf w/green beans w/bacon (6 carbs)

Snack: Snicker's Low-Carb Marathon bar (3 carbs)

Pre-workout: 1 piece of low-carb bread (5c/slice) w/1 tbsp of carb options peanut butter & 1 tbsp of smucker's sugar-free raspberry jam (equals about 11.5 carbs), 1/4 cup blackberries & raspberries (about 2 carbs?)

Post workout: Atkins Vanilla Creme shake & 1 fruit cup w/melon pieces (cantaloupe, honeydew) and grapes. (god only knows, but if I had to guess it was maybe 1.5-2 cups so...maybe 25-30 carbs?)

The exercises I do are mostly heavy lifting (to the point of exhaustion) 2-3x per week. Some free weights, some free-motion machines, and a few lunges/squats. According to my trainer, carbs eaten immediately after a workout go to fuel muscle growth and not to dietary fat, but I'm not sure I buy that. Oh -- and on the days I don't lift, I eat around 20 carbs a day.

[kweenofulz]

I wondered that for a while, since I know muscle absorbs post heavy lifting carbs in a way that they do deliver water to them, and make them fuller as well as repair tissue. I was thinking of adding SF fruit spreads, fruits and maybe yams or whole wheat pasta for after heavy lifting. Either way, I like what you do on your lifting and off days. I'll attempt to do the same.

Will you monitor your progress and report back on this issue, please?

Thanks

[sky75]

Hey Kween, I sure will. I've been doing a lot of resarch on this and my head is gonna burst but I think I've about got it worked out. I would still like more feedback from the experts, though.

[kweenofulz]

But I don't mean from the dietician's corner only. I mean someone who is familiar with bodybuilding concept of carb loading, heavy lifting and carb cycling, but at the same time a guru in the Atkin's approach. I'd like to hear them. You know, the THEY!

Either way, I am doing same thing you do. It's just a pain in the butt for me since I can't tolerate any processed carbs (like bread, pasta, even brown rice and oatmeal is a toughy). I feel like a Valentine's Day balloon soon after.

I am keeping track of you, sky, on the workout board. Reading it gives me the much needed motivation.

(my Xmas gift to myself was the Bowflex Dialup Dumbbells, I make sure they aren't collecting the dust. For a hefty price of near $400, I better be using them, gosh darnit )

[sky75]

Ah, the magic "They" who knows all the answers. When you find, them Kween, let me know.

I was going to tell you to check out the Heavy Metal Fans thread on the exercise board, but I guess you already did.

Good for you on the dumbbells! I envy those who can work out at home...somehow I am much more motivated at the gym. Last night I did my first bench press, up to a whopping 50 lbs. Guess you've gotta start somewhere...now if they could just invent a cure for DOMS I'd be soooo happy!

[inatic]

Hi kweenofulz

I body build, and carb cycle. I dont carb load before a meal and often lift in the am without having even eaten first.

If your interested in what I have been eating it can be found in the following thread. Today's Menu - Whatjya Eating?

Orignally my trainer (nutritional use only) had me cycle: cals, fats, carbs and protein. Now that i have reached a low body fat and do not need to lean out any further, other than my troubled abdominal area, he has kept my protein constant and now has added a free day to eat what ever i want for a 24-36 hr period each week OR i can add some extra carbs to all days instead of cycle them. Since my body did so well with the cycling, I am chooseing to continue that way for now and try free day.. I chose not to eat sugar or white stuff but will add back in some treats that I have not been able to eat while leaning out.

[kweenofulz]

SKY, 50 lbs bench press for starters isn't all that bad. I am sure you know by know how quickly we gain strenght! I'd love to go to the gym, I work out at home because I have no choice. I am a single mom of 3, working full time. So I got me a bench, nothing fancy, got me 3 different sets of dumbbells, barbells (some fancy, some from the stone age), got some ankle weights, and I lock myself in my office at home (room 6x9) and work out there, while PC is blasting "what is love, baby don't hurt me". Thank goodness for Spongebob, otherwise I couldn't be a "girly man"
I am fighting to get up at 6 and do cardio. But I do various cardios throughout the day about 20-40 min each. Example: am cardio, simple jog for about 20 min (since I can actually still sleep throughout the entire jog section). During the day, lunch time power work (about 2 miles), and at night another 20 min of HIIT (rather a parody of one). Weights always at night, which leads me to a question for Ileen.
Ileen, you don't feel the strenght is lacking when lifting in am on empty stomach? I am nowhere near your BF %, thus I can't entertain myself with a diet similar to yours. But I will definetly check it out to prepare for the very near (I hope) change in the future. I did read BFFM, loved the book, loved Tom's honest approach. Didn't work for me, I can't tolerate anything delicious, just the nutrition dense stuff absolutely nessecary to survive. Oh well. Either way, I'll keep a close watch of both of you on Heavy Metal, maybe even post myself once in a while. I do get saucy like that sometimes...

[inatic]

I dont feel any lack of strength lifting on an empty stomach. The only workout I really prefer to eat is legs. I do feel I have more strength to push the heaIvy weights then.

I workout mostly at home and started with a weight bench, dumbbells, barbell etc. but have since upgraded to some neat and dandy equipment. I decided to that , rather than join our local gym. We have 4 out of 5 boys still living at home. It would make it really hard for me to get out so early in the am, when i usually workout, and have everyone ready to be out the door and me off to teach preschool (3 days a week)

Do join us on that thread or even on the body for lifers thread. We are all about lifting and nutrition there

[kweenofulz]

I am familiar with BFL. This is new for me to combine low carb and heavy lifting. Low carb and cardio has been done with great success. I did notice the lactic build up is almost nonexistant with LC. Also it's hard to get the burn. But I am beginning to think, maybe it's a benefit. As I'd be sore for a week after working one body part, thus very annoyed. LC minimizes the lac. buildup for me, but I lack strength...
Either way, Thanks for the invitation, I'll move onto the Heavy Metals. I'll see you there Ileen and Sky!

[sky75]

That's great, Kween, I look forward to seeing you over there. As for the lactic acid, well, wait until you meet it's good buddy, DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness). I get that so bad, it drives me nuts. Nothing like not being able to lift a pencil two days after your workout!

[kweenofulz]

I know them two! Love them though, in a very peculiar way.

My weights are upstairs, so after a leg workout, I need a spotter to do downstairs to cook for kids. That's 'cause of LA.

The next day I am so damn fit I can barely get into a shower. Stepping over the bathtub wall is a real challenge. That's 'cause of a DOMS.

After a day when squats rule everyone feels free calling me a "tight ass" at work for about 3-4 days, and I take it as a compliment.
Ok, I am moving to Heavy Metals board....

[Atkins_Nutritionist]

Hi Sky,
You're menu looks good...with one exception. I know the 'Low Carb' claim on the snickers marathon bar would make you think it would be a good choice, but you can't always trust what's written on the package. Flip it over and look at the nutrition label. You'll notice that there are 8 grams of sugar alcohols, and there is even sugar listed as an ingredient! Also, that's 3 net carbs as determined from the subraction method, however, different interactions between nutrients and ingredients may cause the blood sugar impact to actually be much greater. You want to get the most bang for your buck when it comes to nutrients, so a better choice snack would be to have nuts for example. Or if you want a bar, choose one that has all the fiber and protein, but without the sugar alcohols and sugar. And you are correct not to assume what your trainer says about how your carbs will be utilized after a workout is true.

[sky75]

Yeah, I could tell by the first bite that the "3 carbs" was a lie, but I just have this compulsion to try every new product that comes out. I've switched to the Advantage Chocolate Chip granola bars, but other than that everything stays about the same.

[prox]

Allow myself to chime in for a second. I lift three times a week on monday/wednesday/friday and follow that up with a shake containing 30 grams whey and 30 grams dextrose. I'm going to provide the reasons why below. Of course I am comming at this as a athlete/ amatuer body builder so the way I low carb is going to be quite different than someone who walks maybe three times a week, and leads an otherwise sedetary life.

First off, the enzymes LPL and HSL come into play here, along with insulin and glucose.

Let's look at a few explanations of some of these things........

Quote:
Fat Breakdown and Utilization:
The good news is that, fat can be broken down and utilized. Yes, it's a scientific fact that your fat cells can give up their stores for use as fuel. So, let's explore this process of lipolysis or "fat-breakdown" and its opposite, lipogenesis or "fat-creation".

Insulin and glucagon have opposing effects on fat in the body, and that includes stored fat, dietary fat, or fat made in the liver or in the fat cells (adipose tissue). Most hormones work by plugging into receptors on the surface of your cells, and cause a secondary messenger to be created inside the cell, which will then convey the signal to the appropriate mechanism inside. Often these secondary messengers are enzymes which are a type of protein. Now, in the case of insulin and glucagon, the former, (insulin) stimulates adipose tissue (fat cells) to release the enzyme called Lipoprotein Lipase (LPL) which transports fatty acids into the fat cell and keeps them there. This enzyme is highly sensitive to variations in the metabolic state, being rapidly increased by a high level of plasma glucose. On the other hand, LPL's activity is
decreased when plasma insulin is low, as in diabetes, or a calorie restricted diet, and most importantly in our case, on a low carbohydrate diet. On the other hand, there is another enzyme, Hormone-Sensitive Lipase (HSL) which does just the opposite, by releasing fatty acids from adipose tissue into the blood so that they can be transported to other cells, and burned as fuel. In fact, fat is the preferred fuel of our mitochondria, the tiny furnaces, so to speak, of every cell in you body. HSL's activity is increased when plasma glucagon is high and insulin is low.





also..........


Quote:
Coordinated regulation of hormone-sensitive lipase and lipoprotein lipase in human adipose tissue in vivo:
implications for the control of fat storage and fat mobilization.

Frayn KN, Coppack SW, Fielding BA, Humphreys SM.

Oxford Lipid Metabolism Group, Nuffield Department of Clinical Medicine, Radcliffe Infirmary, UK.

The enzymes lipoprotein lipase (LPL, EC 3.1.1.34) and hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL, EC 3.1.1.3) apparently catalyze opposing functions in white adipose tissue: the former is concerned with fat storage, the latter with fat mobilization. We have studied their regulation in vivo in normal subjects in the postabsorptive state and after eating meals of different compositions, by measurement of arteriovenous concentration differences for triacylglycerol, non-esterified fatty acids and glycerol across a subcutaneous adipose depot. The two enzymes are regulated in a broadly reciprocal manner: in the overnight-fasted state, HSL is more active, but after a meal HSL is suppressed whilst LPL is activated.
The movement of fatty acids in and out of adipose tissue appears to be driven by concentration gradients generated by regulation of these two enzymes, and also by activation, in the postprandial period, of the process of fatty acid esterification. The results show some interesting and perhaps unexpected features of metabolic regulation. Of the fatty acids generated by the action of LPL on circulating TAG, a large proportion is released directly into the venous plasma:close to 100% in the overnight-fasted state, and 50% or more at the peak of LPL action after a meal, making what appear reasonable assumptions. We suggest that this apparent 'inefficiency' of fat storage reflects the energetic
cost of maintaining precise control over such a fundamental process. Although LPL is usually thought of as the enzyme
regulating fat deposition, in fact the fatty acids and glycerol it releases from circulating TAG represent a substantial proportion of those released from adipose tissue, especially in the postprandial state. In addition, although HSL is considered the enzyme responsible for fat mobilization, suppression of its activity is essential to normal regulation of fat deposition. Thus, fat storage and fat mobilization during normal daily life are controlled by coordinated regulation of a number of enzymatic processes in white adipose tissue.



and........


Quote:
Lipoprotein lipase and the disposition of dietary fatty acids.

Fielding BA, Frayn KN.

Oxford Lipid Metabolism Group, Nuffield Department of Clinical Medicine, Radcliffe Infirmary, UK.

Lipoprotein lipase (EC 3.1.1.34; LPL) is a key enzyme regulating the disposal of lipid fuels in the body. It is expressed in a number of peripheral tissues including adipose tissue, skeletal and cardiac muscle and mammary gland. Its role is to hydrolyse triacylglycerol (TG) circulating in the TG-rich lipoprotein particles in order to deliver fatty acids to the tissue. It appears to act preferentially on chylomicron-TG, and therefore may play a particularly important role in regulating the disposition of dietary fatty acids. LPL activity is regulated according to nutritional
state in a tissue-specific manner according to the needs of the tissue for fatty acids. For instance, it is highly active in lactating mammary gland; in white adipose tissue it is activated in the fed state and suppressed during fasting, whereas the reverse is true in muscle. Such observations have led to the view of LPL as a metabolic gatekeeper, especially for dietary fatty acids. However, closer inspection of its action in white adipose tissue reveals that this picture is only partially true. Normal fat deposition in adipose tissue can occur in the complete absence of LPL, and conversely, if LPL activity is increased by pharmacological means, increased
fat storage does not necessarily follow. LPL appears to act as one member of a series of metabolic steps which are regulated in a highly coordinated manner. In white adipose tissue, it is clear that there is a major locus of control of fatty acid disposition downstream from LPL. This involves regulation of the pathway of fatty acid uptake and esterification, and appears to be regulated by a number of factors including insulin, acylation-stimulating protein and possibly leptin.




So we can say the following about LPL and HSL:
when LPL is high, storeage occurs (and growth usually) when HSL is high, (insulin is low) fat is
release from adipose cells. Agreed ?


If we opt for a PW shake that consists of only proteins (whey, ect)

What takes place............well the proteins will be available for protein synthesis.......and may even illicit an insulin responce.....the main question so far is .....

Is the insulin response sufficient to help drive the nutritents into the muscle ? Since no Carbs have been ingested.....LPL and insulin will remain lower and HSL will be at much higher levels.

What does this mean......well since...low insulin (and if it is just from the protein, LPL will be at raised levels also) is present......then probably not much as far as fat storage goes. See, if LPL and insulin levels are Low...........but no FFA's are available........the body will turn to amino acids (muscle) next.
This is not good!

What about recovery ? Well that is the hole in a protein only shake, as well as the utilization of protein and possibility of more muscle loss.

Also, protein synthesis will continue and overall amounts will not be limited really by the lack of carbs.........but without the presence of those carbs....a Quick recovery and Glycogen replenishment will occure at a much much slower rate as well.

Did we lose fat......well probably..but we also most likely lost some muscle also.


Now what happens if we add fat to that protein only PW?
Well it actually helps continue fat burn........but at the expense still of muscle recovery as we have not ingested any carbs.

Because LPL is reduced (no insulin) and HSL is high.......when HSL is high, (insulin is low) fat is release from adipose cells. And........FFA's would be oxidized for fuel rather than aminos. (sparing muscle) Good thing right ? Well it is a good thing for fatloss........but not for recovery and glycogen replenishment. This too me is still a big hole in fats in a PW shake. The rate of protein absorbtion will be slowed significantly and glycogen replenishment will take much longer. Also with in the absence of larger amounts of insulin..there is some question as to the effective drive of the amino's and nutrients into the muscle. Again, protein synthesis
will continue and overall amounts will not be limited really by the lack of carbs.........but without the presence of those carbs....a Quick recovery. Glycogen replenishment will occure at a much much slower rate.

You increase the chance of stored aminos to be used as well, plus you want muscle glyocgen to replenish at some point because that increased leptin allowing for better fat burning. Sort of a catch 22 ..No ?

Even when cutting....Not the best option.

[prox]

continued..........

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How about if we go with carbs, fat and protein?
Well this is the sure fire way to gain fat.

When insulin and LPL is high but circulating FFA's are low, glucose is used for glycogen replenishment first, adipose storage second. This is not fully the case as the fat will cause a much higher amoutn of FFA's. When insulin is high, LPL is high therefore increased storage of fatty acids into fat cells is increased.
We gain fat !

The worst option for all the reasons........I am sure we all agree on this ?



what about if we go with carbs and protein only ?
Well with this choice........LPL and insulin is high, and now HSL lowers (yes fat burn goes to a trickle if not a halt) What does this do ? It replenishes glycogen and pounds the aminos into the muscles....increases the rate of
protein synthesis, which equates to a faster recovery.

Increased glyocgen equates to increased cell volume which increases leptin which triggers the fed state, which equates to increased recovery too. But since nutrient uptake is highest post wokrout, ciriculting glucose go towards muscle glyocogen and FFA's are still used as fuel and therefore HSL will still release fatty acids from adipose cells. Sort of a Paradox really

When insulin and LPL is high but circulating FFA's are low, glucose is used for glycogen replenishment first, adipose storage second. A good thing.......helps to speed recovery.

BEST CHOICE, BY FAR !

[prox]

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As there is mounting evidence that for many, a mix of high Gi and low Gi carbs may be ideal for their PW shake......as the high Gi will illicit the needed insulin spike but the lower Gi will help keep insulin levels more stable after that initial spike and help to limit any subsequent crashing like that that can occur on a high Gi carb PW shake(if slightly over done in amounts of carbs).

Still others have opted for all carbs to be lower GI, IMO the reduction of insulin spike may be too great for most and limit the rate of protein synthesis to something less than near optimal. But for some severly insulin sensitive........this could be a viable option IMO.

I myself use high Gi carbs (dextrose and/or maltodextrin).
Maybe some day, I'll toss in some lower GI carbs into the mix.

I hope you all enjoyed this little lesson

[sky75]

WOW, Prox, that's a lot of info! Thanks!

So let me see if I get this...based on what you posted, let's assume these are primary goals:

1) Avoid fat storage

2) Promote muscle growth


So then the best option for a post-workout snack would be something low-fat, high-carb, and high-protein. So let's say something along the lines of low-fat chocolate milk, with whey protein powder mixed in would be good?

Here are a few questions:

Is there any distinction in the type of protein, specifically betweene casein and whey? I've heard that for cutting casein is better. I currently use whey.

What about pre-workout? Is it truly necessary to get carbs then, or would protein be as effective?

For a post-post workout meal (since I usually lift, then go home & eat dinner) is it advisable to continue to keep fat low?