No Ketosis...yet!

[laneyjkd]

I am in induction & have been for 2 weeks. I can barely obatin a reading on the ketostix that is anything different to 'normal' mode. I am on no medication, strictly follow Dr Atkins' advice on induction, exercise aerobically and anerobically several times a week. I have about a stone (14lbs) to lose or aout 2 inches off teh waist. Occasionally I dip into a ketosis reading, but the next day, its normal again. Any suggestions? (Over the last 2 weeks, I have lost 2 3/4lbs, lost about 3/4 inch off the waist....?)

[MAMZELLE]

Excessive water intake can dilute the readings, also large doses of vitamin C [above 500 daily]. Or maybe it's something hidden in the foods that you're not realizing, if you'd care to post a typical menu. Some people just don't 'turn', and I've also heard lot's of excercise can effect them, and even the slightest pink shows you're in keytosis, but if not even that is showing, don't use them as your only berometer. There are countless variables, so don't get stuck and discouraged by the stix....ignore them if you have to, they're not infalable, far from it.

[Lisa Rae]

Ok..here's my 2 cents..

First..have you had someone look over your menues? many times people think their doing induction right..and are having a few things that are not on the list. Dr. A said even a biate of something not legal..can set you back days in loss. Secod..if you've done the above..are eating clean induction (hence..no products..as products can slow or stop loss in some) then check the numbers in the book for what your induction loss should be based on weight amount you have to lose and your sex. (theres a chart at the end of induction chapter) I would assume by your numbers..if your eating clean..then your concidered resisitant. NOT by the sticks (as any color other then wet beige is ketosis..and dark is not better for loss)but by the amount you lost. Read the chapter about resistance..and follow the suggestions in the book.

[laneyjkd]

Thanks for your comments. A typical days intake would be
Breakfast: 2 bacon and 2 or 3 suasages, grilled
2 eggs scrambled

Lunch: 4oz salad and either some ham, cheese or fish. Fish is mixed with Hellman's mayo

Tea: Steak with 4oz veg from induction list, or other meats, eg, lamb steaks, trout, salmon, anything like this.

dessert: Jelly & cream about 3 or 4 x a week

Thats it

Drinks thru day; plenty of water
2 cups coffee with dash of cream
1 cup decaf tea

Thats it! 2nd week, lost 1 1/2 lbs, not bad i thought. Can/should i be doing anything different?

[Diana]

Measure your Mayo...

How much Cream?

Jello can stall some

[MAMZELLE]

Looks fine, except for the Jello which is iffy and has maltodextrin and I and many have cut it out as per Dr. Bernstein who is very emphatic about that and ALL powders being mostly 96% sugar spiking elements. Also I don't eat any sausage of any kind nor anything I'm not watching someone 'fill' with my own eyes and Dr. Atkins first said not to eat those things. I always stuck to that original advice and perhaps if having problems, and are not satisfied, you should test without the iffy things and eliminate them just to see. Entirely up to you, of course. I don't NEED cream and it's one more element I don't use, but if really needing it, then have the two spoons or try to even get away with one [good practice for the future too]...... I used to whip it as whipped cream with liquid or melted tablet sweetner when first doing this diet decades ago, but then as time went by didn't really need all that extra jazz lol..... but i drink my coffee black anyway, so that's different.

[laneyjkd]

Thanks Mamzelle, I'll cut them out, see what ahppens! Any good suggestions for dessert that works..!?

[MAMZELLE]

Jello was my biggest tragety BECAUSE it was the only thing that I could eat that was even LIKE a dessert, but I didn't really use it as such because I'm not a dessert eater and only always had desserts when 'out' but it was the thing I could grab already made from the fridge and take a few spoonfuls at any time to feel refreshed since i don't
eat fruit at all and I'm on induction indefinitely because of my bs, and especially in summer when needing something cool, so I wish I could tell you what to substitute for jello but I've been just doing without myself. I was VERY upset about the jello situation. The prepared CUPS of jell-o brand jello are ok because they are not a powder and don't have those chemicals which powders require [also in sweetners which is why I've long ago switched to tablets for hot drinks, and liquids for cooking, or melt many saccharin for that and keep in a tobasco bottle to dispense]. I have almost 50 boxes of cherry jell-o sitting in this house that I am not touching, and used to enjoy it so much..... but for you it's probably for a much shorter time if you eliminate it. For me I can't see ever having it again since that/those chemicals spike sugar, and that's ALL I need :-( Very hard to live in this world anymore. I make my decaf
very sweet [and strong] and keep it always by me to sip, even when it gets cold, and that's what I'm down to, it's really ridiculous. I've even called the company ....in Canada there's no maltodextrin in ANY of their jello and many people have called them from the states and she just keeps putting the requests and complaints thru, but we all know how effective THAT is :-(

[laneyjkd]

Right, jello has sugar spikes so its potentially off the menu. Mind you, I dont seem to suffer any effects of this spike, or maybe i do and dont know the signs. How do I know if I get a sugar spike? What's the danger of having a spike? Is it not being noticed because this is the first time I have done a low carb diet?? And keep going with your search for a jello that works!

[Lisa Rae]

Sugar spike (aka rise in blood sugar level) is usually indicated more by the drop after! When I've had a spike..it's followed by a drop in blood sugar levels. This is indicated in me by getting very sleepy very fast..headaches and overall Zero Energy! I experience this when I don't eat often..and or have something I shouldn't! It's like my bodies way of saying "Hey you! Your busted!" LOL

[LCmom]

Do you have signs of ketosis? Do you wake up with the horrible breath?

I have seen that most people lose about 10% of the weight they need to lose during the first 2 weeks of induction. That puts you right on schedule.

You might want to change the time of day you test and only test once per day.

[MAMZELLE]

stix should be tested at night.. I've also read to urinate before eating and testing your next meal to get rid of former keytones and see what present meal is showing [paraphrasing]. Also, you'll see in this chapter to test actual foods themselves..... chew, with saliva mixed in and apply directly to stix.

here's a lot that will interest you. Read the whole chapter [7 pages, page #'s are on the bottom of each page to click as you go] read whole chapter and from the BEGINNING.... It applies to BOTH diabetics and low carbers. Then you can access other parts of the book after finishing that chapter, applying to your specific questions. This chapter is mostly about foods, diet, including jello, atrificial sweetners, hidden sugars, etc.

http://www.diabetes-book.com/book/chapter10.shtml

[LCRedhead]

Originally posted by laneyjkd
I I can barely obatin a reading on the ketostix that is anything different to 'normal' mode. (Over the last 2 weeks, I have lost 2 3/4lbs, lost about 3/4 inch off the waist....?)

Remember you DO NOT have to be in ketosis to lose weight.

[MAMZELLE]

Lisa.... Interesting what you said. Been wondering why I'm dizzy and sometimes downright faint when I never change my eating habits, nor my foods.

Not being familiar with doing Atkins WITH high bs [or at least not when knowing yet that I have this condition] I often wondered why dizzy when I never eat anything different these days at ALL... for at least 6 months. Never have any reason to have spikes and shouldn't, at least not from FOOD.... so if you say that zero energy, [my 'constant' state] and fatigue [headaches I never get] are after a SPIKE, then does that mean that my sugar was aways UP before feeling this way, and that it was BECAUSE I had a spike that it resulted in low sugar... or can it also drop on it's own and not ONLY after a food spike?

I shouldn't be having any spikes from what I'm eating. NEVER. And do those symptoms have to be from only low sugar? Actually, I don't get the 'sleepy' part much, just total fatigue, weakness and the dizziness, which is the most obvious sympton of low sugar, but have been wondering where that's coming from when I AM eating regularly, and even if I have something fast at those times, I'm still dizzy. Doesn't help.

Also...... Below it says for LOW = 'hunger' and for HIGH = 'eating too much' lol... what's the difference, and how does one KNOW the difference. Okay, there are sometimes that I DO go without food
too many hours, when I'm just not hungry and too busy, lazy and don't want to stop what I'm doing, but those were not always the times I got dizzy.

LOW.... headache, hunger, faintness, nervousness, irritability, sweating

HIGH...confusion, eating too much, weakness, nausea, vomiting, urinating often, fruity breath

[laneyjkd]

Mamzelle, I might be stating the obvious, but have u had a thyroid check? Also, are you getting the right variety of food combinations?

[MAMZELLE]

Don't know what you mean by food ''combinations''.... doing Atkins and have been on & off since my early teens [was a patient of his] and there's not much choice of variety of food combinations on induction, which I'm staying on indefinitely because of my recent high sugar only now. What are you referring to? [I don't have the symptoms I stated above in that list... that list I took off my mother's fridge which was there when she was ill and still alive, when the nurses put them there for all the different home health aides to be alerted to and watch for before I came to also take care of her with them for her last 2 years. The only ones of those that *I* have are very occasional dizzyness, & also fatigue ......I have NONE of any of the others, ever... in either of the two lists of high sugar or low.

[Lisa Rae]

Mamz,

Coud be wrong here..but I'm thinking laney meant having protein with veggies instead of just having protein alone or veggie carbs alone. I know for me..If my blood sugar is low (as described above) and I eat a snack that contains only protein..it can actully make me more tired. I get this sometimes when doing Stillman's for several days. I may be eating often enough..and enough calories to not have blood sugar drop..but the lack of veggie carbs with my protein can cause a reation as if If I wasn't eting enough.

[MAMZELLE]

That's good to know, Lisa, thanks.... I'm glad you mentioned that. I have been making sure to eat vegs with dinner but not at any other time and lately been buying salad material which I thought might be better for 'ruf***e' than the vegs, which are still in tremendous volume in my freezer [I overbought meats, chicken, bacon, and vegs and more, and half are up in my neighbors freezer taking it all Up LOL.... she's ready to kill me because I don't eat enough to make room in my own freezer fast enough. It's hysterical. I didn't realize my freezer was too full before I got this last batch and panicked, luckily she helped..... she's a widow who's usually away staying with her family in Jersey and I would have been out of luck, luckily she was home at the time! My other neighbor/friend had NO room so I'd have had to go ringing doorbells with a whole freezer worth of stuff! Luckily I have a 'side by side' with a giant vertical top to botton freezer or it would have been worse [though I would have KNOWN there wasn't enough room in THAT kind, but I didn't realize even THIS size couldn't accommodate that much and was so full already. Have to have my head examined]. Actually my neighbor bought all the meats for me and bought more than usual, but I should have made it a point to tell her my freezer was still pretty full, and forgot to. LOL

Anyway, I'll make even more of an effort to eat at least a LITTLE of veg/salad carbs with all protein and spread them out more. I HOPE that's the culprit and not something more serious, though I never had to do that before. I used to eat mostly ONLY protein on induction without a problem but my chemistry has changed since then with high sugar, I'm sure, and now guess it can't tolerate that. Thought it could because there were NO specifications to add carbs with diabetes or at least to have them with every meal, and I did heavily investigate it when starting this in full force again. It WAS a deep concern of mine. But since seeing nothing in the main books, I just assumed the diet was the same for diabetes as I had always followed it with 'normal' sugar through the years.

I was even concerned when I started with Atkins again strictly WITH high sugar if more carbs are needed, and was asking all over the boards, even the nutritionists but got no answer s from anyone, even at the Diabetic threads, and even in Diabetes Revolution and Bernstein's book nothing was specified about making sure to eat carbs WITH protein at all times, but according to what you're saying, my instincts were probably right and I DID have them with my evening meal.... but with nothing else all day, only protein [except celery with tuna sometimes at breakfast, or inbetween]. I'm going to make SURE now to do that, but hate risking more carbs because of the sugar, so I'll just spread it out thinner thru the day and less with dinner, and not actually eat more of them.... just the same total amount more OFTEN. Thanks Laney, too.... if that's what you meant.

I know I DO always feel better and less weak when eating carbs [of course a no-brainer].... and always felt better especially when eating the dreamfields pasta, [not lately but it broke a few weeks of constant dizzy spells when first trying it a couple of months ago] but i'm so afraid of too much of even the GOOD carbs [vegs & salad] now because of the bs. It's made me really paranoid with fear because of the high bs being so new to me.

I thought as long as I had vegs or salad at least once daily that would be enough but didn't realize that ALWAYS wtih protein throughout the day was necessary! I don't get hungry enough to add them with protein at all times, sometimes I even have to force myself to eat ANYTHING, even the protein.... but will experiment and force myself from now on. Thanks!

Hmm, coming back cause I just realized that I AM nibbling cheese all day and night long in tiny bits, and that's carbs along with the protein. Wonder how THAT figures into the theory? The word they blanked out above with >***< .....was "r u f f a g e" .....LOLOL Let's see if separating the letters with spaces works. :-)

Okay that worked, though that was silly...the little word was only PART of a word and not used alone... well since on the subject of censorship... a little tidbit of what the F word derived from. The police blotters in England. Whenever they pulled a prostitute off the streets they booked her ''F-or.... U-nlawful .... C-arnal.... K-nowledge", and then just started abrieviating it through the ages! Interesting, huh. LOL A Brittish scholor friend of mine told me that years ago... it's in some sort of their most famous English dictionaries or encyclopedias. Forgot the name of it. Oh, I think the "English-Oxford".

[laneyjkd]

Yep, that's what I meant, thanks Tina. Nutritionists not associated with the Atkins way of life would insist on food combinatins and variety. According to a friend of mine who is a nutritionist, our bodies adapt to what we put in them and eventually need to have different foods in order to extract essential goodness. So if yuo have been strictly eating only certain foods, your body will be beginning to lack certain essential goodness that it would ordinarily get from food variety.

Just to share - I'm moving onto the OWL phase. I hope I continue to have the success on this that I have been having on the induction phase.......

[MAMZELLE]

Well on a low carb diet, it's still the same foods for ME, and the same combinations, just eating the vegs/salads with it more often than only at dinner, as opposed to eating the proteins mostly alone the rest of the day, as Lisa suggests.

I take heavy supplements to help with what i'm missing that I've totally cut out of my diet which is required in any low carb belief, and although actual food is always best, that is the next best thing and important to do.... at this point, though, I do throw in a couple of nuts here and there [macodamias & walnuts, which are the lowest, and I always keep in the house now, and amazingly enough I don't get carried away, sometimes I can only eat 2 or three, which baffles even me, but not really because everytime I've done this diet it gradually becomes a complete turnaround in my eating habits and mindset, and which is why I always tell newcomers to this woe..... to just wait and see the tranformation that will automatically occur within themselves if they stick with it long enough].

If not for my bs issue, I would be eating many other things by now, and just keeping near zero carbs in my HOME and eating much more on the outside, the way I've always done it, but now I won't allow myself ANYTHING out of the way except a few nuts and of course the extra cheeses also give me a little extra carbs. That's my limit, and what also makes it more livable.

And good luck, Laney, I know you'll do fine at the next level.

I'm just REALLY dreading the holidays and don't know what's going to happen. I always went hog wild with friends on the holidays and now can't, for the first time. All other times I've been having no problem. My DF will be here too and for weeks, [though he's a great help and great support and also is moderately on Atkins for HIS borderline bs too] but can't see myself without all those usual great foods and drinks for the first time in my life....... Thanksgiving, Xmas, New years... Champagne, my Manhattan's, the foods, etc. I just can't fathom all that's coming.

Actually, my only problem is crusty stuffing with all the NATURAL fatty turkey juices all over it lol [I don't need that thick commercial gravy filled with cornstarch, and don't even like it as much as the natural]. All the rest of the traditional side dishes I can more easily do without, but just need my stuffing :-( And the drinks when 'partying' especially with ''him'', when out running around everywhere. Do any diabetics drink when not on medication?

My mother had her glass of cognac ocassionally, once in a while when socializing but she was on insulin and I imagine that's very different. Before I KNEW about my high bs, I was drinking when going out to dinner, and it didn't kill me. I'm still here...... so am really very perplexed. I know about pork rinds replacing bread as stuffing but in the receipe section, it didn't seem too exciting lol Guess it's all in the seasonings, which I'm good at.... but the consistancy is really so much different. Never tried it as stuffing. And cauliflower is too many carbs for the amount that *I* eat stuffing, as I've mentioned in another thread but no one has yet come to my rescue with a really drop dead replacement for stuffing..... and one that is 1, 2, 3 quick & easy without a zillion steps and processes that keep me in the kitchen, which I HATE :-(

[laneyjkd]

Mamzelle, what are the 'bs'? And, am I right in thinking that u have diabetes? My friend has diabetes and wants to do the Atkins, but is unsure....... anyone have diabetes and is ok on Atkins?

[MAMZELLE]

yes, it's 'blood sugar' [sorry, should have been more considerate and written it out at least once. I HATED that when first coming here before knowing what everything meant, maybe the others can tell you where the initial definition listing is. I filed it away long ago, but unfortunately can't paste it here from where I filed it because of an Explorer dysfunction. I can only paste from Netscape but it's not filed there, only in my outlook express].

Atkins, Dr. Richard Bernstein [same foods] and low carb is 'THE' diet for diabetes. He got my mother and millions of others totally OFF insulin with mere food. Later my mother CHOSE to go back on insulin to expand her food choices but that was just 'her' decision. She didn't have to go back on insulin, but was so USED to it by that time that she didn't mind it and prefered it.

I don't/didn't agree and was very angry with her, and after we went to Atkins I followed this way of eating the rest of my life to avoid the diabetic legacy but guess I was doomed anyway, but I think it's because I was less careful in the last few years of nothing but problems. Strangely I didn't gain a single pound from it all but that was BECAUSE of the high sugar lurking. They say you LOSE a lot of weight at the onset, and I never gained anything back, but it's also hard to lose whatever weight you DO want to lose which for me is another 10 lbs.just for bs reasons..

I finally got the nerve to take my own blood sugar about a year ago after 2 yrs of taking care of HER with cancer and alzheimer's along with her diabetes [and I was taking her sugar around the clock along with visiting nurses coming twice a day and also taking it and giving her her insulin, which is something I couldn't do because I cant stand needles... but the blood sugar didn't bother me because you don't SEE the needle and it's a quick stab, so had access to a machine] mine was over 300 in the MORNING that first time, and every day thereafter, and I almost freaked out and i went immediately on Atkins and it took 3 whole days to get it down to even 120.

I was very frustrated here always saving my mother's life because her doctor wouldn't adjust her insulin according to her severe fluctuations [there are two schools of thought on that and he was of THAT school, and she was with him for so MANY years even when much healthier and before the other two diseases, that I didn't want to start searching for another doctor at that point, but faught tooth and nail with him, with the help of all her nurses and he ONCE lowered it at my DEMAND with the nurses backing me up and it did get better and more livable and safer] but it had previously plumeted so low all the time that it was touch and go and I never slept so the tension of living like that [and much more that I won't go into here] sent me off the deep end and although I didn't go 'completely' berserk with foods, I WAS eating sugar free ones thinking they would be 'better', having never had experience with them before, and despite knowing better.

My fiancee having no knowledge of these things, was trying to make me happy and doing everything he could and was constantly sending me every sugar free food and chocolates, candies, cakes [birthday, etc. for both of us] chocolate ROSES on our birthdays because I told him that I "can't EAT real flowers" when he kept sending THOSE [I think flowers are a waste and don't like watching them die] LOL and everything you could think of from the internet, and always ate sugar free ice cream although it was what I gave my mother ONLY if her sugar was below 100 at the end of the day, so I shouldn't have touched it either but I didn't really know before testing my sugar, but continued to eat it anyway even afterwards with all the gourmet expensive sugar free junk.

One day I woke up and came out of denial [after dreading inheriting this disease all my life and hearing about it all my life with my mother even after moving away at age 17] then coming back to take care of her and I was sick of that diabetic world and how insulin could threaten your life every single day so I'm doing everything to avoid it. I think the insulin is MORE threatening than the disease itself, which I now know after living it through her lately for those 2 yrs before she died, and not paying attention in my early life when living with her as a kid and her always having it in complete control and it NOT having been a big issue..... then I read recently that insulin IS so harmful and risky in Atkins book and that's WHY his goal was always to get everyone OFF of it and that's his greatest legacy to me, in my opinion..... NOT mere dieting. It confirmed my suspicions that one should do everything they can NOT to have to go on insulin. Yes, it's a life saver, but there are safer and healthier alternatives that should be attempted first.

I would tell your friend to run, not walk to start this diet, buy every single book that both Atkins AND Bernstein ever wrote, including Bernstein's "The Diabetes Solution" and Atkins' "Diabetes Revolution", [not written by the Dr. himself, though] AND also the two DUMMIES books on it,which I also have ["Diabetes for dummies" and "the Diabetes Cookbook for Dummies", can't hurt either] and to find a doctor who is an Atkins Advocate. I haven't been able to yet and am winging it on my own, which is wrong but that's a whole other story. I have a lifetime of scar tissue in my brain of witnessing this disease second hand and am sick of it, and throught I was THROUGH with it with her passing, and now instead..... starting all over with myself. Pretty disgusted.

But on the other hand I also have to consider myself lucky at my mother's legacy of starting me on this way of eating since a kid, not only by dragging me to Atkins with her way back then, but her keeping a no sugar and low carb home because of believing in it even before anyone even heard of Atkins! So now eating this way is second nature to me and much easier with no differences at all in what I've always been used to and always getting right back to after straying sometimes, like in the last 3, 4 years. But I am sure I would have been stricken with it much earlier if not for atkins AND my mother, because I have it on both sides of the family and therefore an 80% chance of having gotten it.... if it didn't pass by me completely, which it seems to have done with my brother. Better me than him.... he wouldn't have been able to deal with it at ALL, and not a healthy eater and very stubborn and 3000 miles away so I can't even NAG him! And he's a Taurus the BULL.... and not one to even BE nagged :-(

[MAMZELLE]

.....Of the 'diet' books, my personal opinion, is yes, to get all the Atkins paperbacks but if only being able to get one.... 72 original is the most effective and although I have all of them, it's only due to it being interesting to read the updates, compare, and be aware of what's going on and how it's being altered, but I only follow the original without any storebought products and leniencies. It's better to start with, and be backed up with the 'basic training' to even be better ABLE to make decisions on your own of what to add if you choose to.... and how to add, and how it may effect you negatively, and what to go BACK to if it does. 72 is PURE Atkins and what started all this 30 years ago.

[Lisa Rae]

Laney..glad to help..(pssst..It's LISA btw) LOLOL