Starvation Mode Questions

[ociana]

I had asked some questions in the thread here about the role of dietary fat in weight loss, but the responses brought up more questions about the concept of starvation mode.

1: What happens in the body to "trigger" starvation mode? I am looking for the actual biochemical or hormonal mechanism that takes place.

2: If body fat counts as a fuel source, then shouldn't the "trigger" into starvation mode not take place if the combination of dietary calories and body fat burning still totals or exceeds the basal metabolic needs?

3: Can you explain the biochemical process that leads to muscle loss during starvation mode when body fat burning is taking place also? I do not understand how muscle loss can begin if a fuel source is actively being used...

4: Do you really advocate 10-12X CURRENT body weight for calorie intake, as in 4000-4800 calories a day for a 400 lb person?

5: In the other thread, the Atkins nutritionist stated:

On Atkins, you "trick" your body into thinking it is starving by decreasing the carbs so it burns fat instead of having to starve yourself and your body still gets the calories it needs because you should only be shifting the nutrient composition , ie on 1500 cals from 55% carbs to 5-8%. (let me know if this point is clear)

If this is true, which I agree it is, isn't that trick actually avoiding starvation mode so the dietary calorie intake is unnessary?

As far as studies go, the only low fat studies I can locate are high carb, which is not what I am looking for. I am looking for information on the impact of low calorie eating while in the absense of carbohydrates (ie: Stillmans, meat and egg fasting, fat fasting). I have gained an understanding of the biochemical processes that take place, but the concept of starvation mode is still not fitting in with that information for me. Any help you can be will be wonderful.

Thank You!

-Oci

[Atkins_Nutritionist]

Here you go....

Your questions may be best answered by reviewng a medical/nutrition biology textbook not in reviewing research.

1: What happens in the body to "trigger" starvation mode?

I do not know of an actual hormone. When your body thinks it is starving it switches gears from focusing on what it does in a healthy state to preservation as a focus. So, there are many things in addition to hormones that change. The trigger that makes your body "go into starvation mode" is not getting enough fuel or energy for it to do its job. This involved process and can be read about in many health textbooks.

In the case of Atkins, you are burning fat stores (body breaks down fat as it would if you are not getting enough cals) while actually providing adequate cals so all functions are maintained, no need for preservation/starvation mode.

You also must consider the difference in state of overweight, ie overweight insulin resistent individuals vs. thin, lean people.

2: If body fat counts as a fuel source, then shouldn't the "trigger" into starvation mode not take place if the combination of dietary calories and body fat burning still totals or exceeds the basal metabolic needs?

Yes, that is why i said "trick" the body. But if you are eating high fat or low fat AND NOT getting enough calories, you will be in "starvation mode" and I will reemphasize this is not healthy.

3: Can you explain the biochemical process that leads to muscle loss during starvation mode when body fat burning is taking place also? Muscle loss starts because the body starts to breakdown muscle to use as calories because there is a caloric deficit from the basal metabolic rate.

4: Do you really advocate 10-12X CURRENT body weight for calorie intake, as in 4000-4800 calories a day for a 400 lb person?

Atkins does not recommend calories for individuals unless absolutely necessary, ie someone is not eating enough or there is an underlying reason that calories do count (hormones, high insulin levels...)

5: In the other thread, the Atkins nutritionist stated:


quote:
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On Atkins, you "trick" your body into thinking it is starving by decreasing the carbs so it burns fat instead of having to starve yourself and your body still gets the calories it needs because you should only be shifting the nutrient composition , ie on 1500 cals from 55% carbs to 5-8%. (let me know if this point is clear)
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If this is true, which I agree it is, isn't that trick actually avoiding starvation mode (yes as described above) so the dietary calorie intake is unnessary? Can you re-word this? I do not understand "dietary calorie intake is unnecessary"?

You are trying to tackle a subject that people go to school to learn over the course of many years. So, it may take you awhile to answer all your questions. They are not simple questions and am happy to help.

[ociana]

Thanks for the answers...but again I have questions.

1: You said: [quote]The trigger that makes your body "go into starvation mode" is not getting enough fuel or energy for it to do its job. In the case of Atkins, you are burning fat stores (body breaks down fat as it would if you are not getting enough cals) while actually providing adequate cals so all functions are maintained, no need for preservation/starvation mode. QUOTE]

Based on your statement, why would decreased calorie consumption while on Atkins cause someone to go into starvation mode?

2:

If body fat counts as a fuel source, then shouldn't the "trigger" into starvation mode not take place if the combination of dietary calories and body fat burning still totals or exceeds the basal metabolic needs?
Yes, that is why i said "trick" the body. But if you are eating high fat or low fat AND NOT getting enough calories, you will be in "starvation mode" and I will reemphasize this is not healthy.

From your answer I again gather that getting enough calories includes calories gained in accessing body fat...correct?

3:

Muscle loss starts because the body starts to breakdown muscle to use as calories because there is a caloric deficit from the basal metabolic rate.

While I agree with that statement, my question was actually asking if the muscle loss would take place if body fat is being burned for fuel at sufficient levels to meet the basal metabolic rate. It makes no sense to me that our body would breakdown muscle before breaking down the fat that it is already accessing.

4:

Atkins does not recommend calories for individuals unless absolutely necessary, ie someone is not eating enough or there is an underlying reason that calories do count (hormones, high insulin levels...)

You state that Atkins does not recommend calories for individuals, yet you recommend consuming enough calories to meet your BMR needs...the example I gave was the BMR calorie needs for a person of that weight. Isn't that the same as recommending calories for individuals?

5: When I asked about dietary calorie intake being necessary or not, what I mean is to ask if BMR calorie levels must be consumed in order to avoid starvation mode if body fat is also being consumed as an energy source for the body?

Based on your responses, I am still unclear on the basic question of whether or not body fat calories burned count toward total calorie intake when determining a need to trigger starvation mode in a person. If the body fat is not included, then a bedridden person who eats Atkins but still consumes their BMR in calories would not lose any weight or very little weight. I understand that eating Atkins changes us to using ketones for energy instead of glucose for energy and that the body has a greater level of energy expenditure to break things down int ketones, both dietary and from stored fat, than to break things down into glucose so there is an advantage there...but I have found nothing that says that the body does not consider body fat as an energy source when determining if it will enter starvation mode or not.

I hope that last part made sense. Thank you again for the dialog about this...If you know of any good biochemistry or nutrition websites that I can refer to for the technical explaination that would be helpful too.

-Oci

[Atkins_Nutritionist]

The book I recommend is "Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease" (this is what I use) by Maurice E. Shils, James A. Olson, Moshe Shike, A. Catherine Ross

I highly recommend it!

1: Based on your statement, why would decreased calorie consumption while on Atkins cause someone to go into starvation mode?

I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand. It is actually simple, the bottom line is that if you are consuming less calories than your BMR (on any plan) you will go into starvation mode. You give the rationale below "If body fat counts as a fuel source, then shouldn't the "trigger" into starvation mode not take place if the combination of dietary calories and body fat burning still totals or exceeds the basal metabolic needs? "

Again, as long as calories/fat total or exceeds BMR, you do not go into starvation mode. I think you understand more than you think you do!

2: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From your answer I again gather that getting enough calories includes calories gained in accessing body fat...correct?

No, BMR is the focus, not body fat. You need enough calories for your basal metabolic rate. You use stored fat because of a deficit in the amount of calories burned from before you started on the plan.

3: You are correct

4. No, it is not the same thing. There is a difference because you do not have to count calories if you are eating 3 meals/day and snacks if hungry. You should be getting enough calories because you are eating calorically dense foods, meat and other proteins, olive oil and other fats. Also, if there is a natural reduction (not extreme restriction)in appetite thus calories, why should you focus on it and make things more diificult?

5:Yes

"Based on your responses, I am still unclear on the basic question of whether or not body fat calories burned count toward total calorie intake when determining a need to trigger starvation mode in a person. "

I am not clear on your obsession with "needing to trigger starvation mode" after I keep saying that this is not healthy and should never be a goal for anyone. Maybe you are asking a different question and I am not understanding?

Are you confusing "starvation mode" with burning body fat?

"If the body fat is not included" I have a question for you. How would you calculate burned body fat as part of your caloric intake?

then a bedridden person who eats Atkins but still consumes their BMR in calories would not lose any weight or very little weight.

They would lose weight and yes, it may be more slowly than if they were active or exercising because they are burning fewer calories.

I see...how low do you want to reduce your calories below your BMR?

"but I have found nothing that says that the body does not consider body fat as an energy source when determining if it will enter starvation mode or not. "

There are people who do these very low calorie diets under a doctors care because it is dangerous but I do not recommend anyone doing this without a physician being involved.

One of the reasons is because if your body thinks it is starving it tries to hold onto its fat for survival. It may inhibit your results. There are other reasons that include a potential electrolyte imbalance which could be fatal.

I think we are making progress!!!

[skdanny]

<<3: Can you explain the biochemical process that leads to muscle loss during starvation mode when body fat burning is taking place also? Muscle loss starts because the body starts to breakdown muscle to use as calories because there is a caloric deficit from the basal metabolic rate. >>

Muscle loss takes place when all the body's stored glucose (glycogen) is used up. The body then begins to break down fat for ketones but before it has enough ketones to run the show it converts protein to glucose. If there isn't enough dietary protein it breaks down muscle.

On Atkins this happens only once (and there is enough dietary protein to spare the muscle) and then ketones take over.
On a high carb low calorie diet (where glycogen is stored and emptied all the time) it happens every day.. hence muscle loss. The low cal/high carb diet doesn't really "burn" fat. It does however break down fat for ketones but then goes back to burn glucose and dump the ketones when carbs are eaten.

danny

[Emily-D]

I think the question is, from those who don't believe in "starvation mode," how can starvation mode exist when the body can draw from its own fat stores?

I don't know the answer, but I do know that fasting and low-fat high-carb diets tend to result in muscle loss, while Atkins does not.

[ociana]

That is a big part of the question Emdo.

Overall it has to do with a few things. Atkins says to count carbs, not calories, but if we are trying to ingest enough calories to meet our BMR then we have to count them! I have been on and off Atkins for the past four years (yep, yoyo Atkins) and when I do it I am very successful...but falling off the wagon takes me a long time to crawl back on. The biggest success was when my husband and I stayed with it for over four months...but we did it that time by tracking carbs, protein, and fat through FitDay.com. We followed Atkins on the carbs, ate 70-100 grams of protein, and then made up the rest of the calories we needed to get to our BMR with fat. This was HARD work and it meant eating when I was not hungry. We did lose, but slowly. This time around I am eating when I am hungry but my husband is asking to do it the way we did when we ate BMR calories...even thought he admits that he was not hungry for all that food either. So I did a little looking around and researching and was unable to find anything to support that while doing Atkins you are subject to starvation mode. That is the reason for my questions. I want to lose the weight. I want to do it in a healthy manner. If eating myself sick is the right way to do it, then I will have to give in and do that....but if eating when I am hungry regardless of calories is also healthy, then I would prefer to do that.

So, that is the question. My BMR is 2000 calories (10x body weight) and trying to eat that is hard...it is just too much food when I am in ketosis. My body does not ask for that much food and a lot of what I have learned in this process is to listen to my body...and it is not telling me that it wants all those calories!

Thanks!

[lkmjbc3]

Ociana...
let me put my $.02 in....

Starvation Mode is just a term we use to describe a slowing of a person's metabolism. There is no real medical definition of the process that I know of........ (Someone please correct if I am wrong). The process is complex and encompasses many different areas and processes of the body- not all of which happen at the same time or for the same reason. There is no one certain harmone or body chemical that triggers this.

The amount of food eaten is certainly a trigger, but other factors come into play. For instance... a person eating a small amount of fat instead of just fasting can actually lose more weight than a fasting person (for awhile). A person fasting will lose less weight than a person fasting and exercising heavily.......

The problem is finding out what triggers the slow down in your metabolism. This seems different in everyone. Some non-Atkins dieters can cut their calories by a 200/day and lose weight. Some can eat only 1000cals per day and struggle to lose. We call this "starvation mode". If these same dieters were to go down to 500 cals/day or even zero... they would lose weight... but not safely or comfortably.

My best guess is that one should listen to their own bodies. If you were forcing yourself to eat 2000 cals/day to avoid starvation mode then I would suggest cutting back to 1800 or 1500 and seeing you results. My bet is that your BMR is probably less than 2000 cals/day. Also remember that other factors are involved. It may well be that the Atkins diet helps to prevent a metabolic slowdown.

lkmjbc3

[Atkins_Nutritionist]

Thanks lkm, I agree with you.

Let me try to answer the questions specifically posted.

<<3: Can you explain the biochemical process that leads to muscle loss during starvation mode when body fat burning is taking place also?

Not exactly sure of the specific process but this is the principle underlying the high protein medically supervised liquid fasts. Provide adequate protein to spare the breakdown of lean body mass (Muscle) and let the calorie deficit instill weight loss.

"Muscle loss takes place when all the body's stored glucose (glycogen) is used up."

This is not true. After glycogen is used the body burns fat not muscle. If there isn't enough dietary protein it breaks down muscle.

"I think the question is, from those who don't believe in "starvation mode," how can starvation mode exist when the body can draw from its own fat stores? "

While it is true that you will not "starve" if you have excess body fat. However, if your body needs 1500 calories. It needs that amount of energy to do the basic requirements of life (breathing, fighting infection, eating, walking...). If you eat less than that amount of calories, even if you are eating enough protein to spare muscle, you are not providing the body with the energy it needs to do its very, very complicated job. If your body breaks down fat to supply energy, you do not get important vitamins/minerals to help breakdown the fat, etc...


However, as lkm said, it is just not as simple as protein, carbs, fat. Other factors include water and electrolyte balance. These 2 factors are critical for life and when unbalanced can be fatal. Vitamins/minerals should also be considered, the list goes on.

"I don't know the answer, but I do know that fasting and low-fat high-carb diets tend to result in muscle loss, while Atkins does not."

This is true because you are eating enough calories and burning fat.

The formula you are using to calculate BMR is not accurate, try using the Harries Benedict equation.

"We followed Atkins on the carbs, ate 70-100 grams of protein, and then made up the rest of the calories we needed to get to our BMR with fat." Did you eat vegetables?

If you are eating when you are hungry are you eating 6 small meals throughout the day? Why not post a sample menu?

I do not think you should eat yourself sick, If you eat 1500-1800 cals you should be ok.

[ociana]

Thank you. That was what I was looking for.

When it comes to how many calories I eat in a day and how often...it is nowhere near 6 small meals. I get hungry about once a day (but I still try to eat breakfast without hunger) and get around 700-1000 calories in on an average day. I would say that about one day a week, usually only because we eat out at a restaurant, I eat up to around 1500 calories. I am not hungry for any more than that.

Breakfast is two eggs overeasy, cooked in butter or a slice of quiche..ingredients vary but usually cheese, a veggie or two, meat, and egg. I always have coffee, either brewed 16oz or an Americano (two shots espresso, hot water) with no cream or sweetener. I drink only water the rest of the day.

My other meal is a meat, depends on what we have that week, proabably about a cup worth...and about 1-2 cups worth of veggies (zucchini, broccoli, bell pepper, collard greens etc.).

That said, this past week I have seen what would happen if I don't make myself eat breakfast unless I am hungry. I have remained hungry...about two hours earlier though...for only one other meal but I have not been very hungry. I ate only the protein portion at that meal for the past 5 days. I have not been hungry for more and have had no changes in my sleep patterns, level of energy, muscle fatigue, hair loss or any other symptoms. In fact, I feel really great. No, I do not take any supplements.

As far as long term eating goes, you have answered my question now.

I just noticed that you asked if we ate vegetables...yes! That is the brunt of the carb count we had...always had three cups of veggies a day in the plan.

Thank you

-Oci

[Atkins_Nutritionist]

Glad we got to the bottom of your question.

I do suggest you use a multivitamin and snack on light foods, like olives that are not filling but will provide more calories and healthy fats.