What is the maximum amount of protein?

[omeara]

It's an odd question I know. But I was wondering what is the mazimum amount of protein I should have? Is there a set number where the body doesn't utilize it?

Erin

[Atkins_Nutritionist]

No, it is not an odd question.

Protein stays consistent at about 30% of calories, carbs (5-25%)and fat (65-45%) fluctuate based on the phase you are in.

[MAMZELLE]

I don't understand where all this percentage of
fat is supposed to be coming from without the
protein that almost always accompanies it.

Most of all the fats are IN the proteins.... i.e. egg
yolks, cheese, meat, fowl and even some fish,
and the 'lean' versions of all of these don't even
have much fat so where are we getting 45-65%
fats, with only 30% protein... unless we drink
olive oil by the bottle, or sit and spoon tubs of
butter by itself or eat a stick of it plain, [like Dr.
Schwarzbein's says she does in the video on her
site]. I can't imagine how to get so much more
fats than protein since they are usually together
[?]

I always thought the natural order of this diet
automatically put protein first, then fats second,
which come along with the protein.... then carbs,
of course, at the lowest rung. How do we get fats
in so much abundance without the protein?

At the same time, we're also told to not use things
like too much mayo and other things containing
fats, that would also add carbs, [& sugar fractions],
etc. And I do see people on here saying they eat
LEAN meats, which eliminates even more fats.

[MAMZELLE]

Forgot to mention that I'm talking about induction above, since many don't just stick to that for only two weeks, but 'indefinitely' and/or basically 'always', even if in modified variations with exceptions on rare occasions.... or as close to basic induction as possible, whereas protein is the bulk of our foods, and our main source of sustenance. If not to protein..... then where is there to turn?

I don't personally eat large amounts of foods, but the ratio of protein to fats seems much higher in what I DO eat. Protein is what I always reach for when hungry... and always thought that's what we're supposed to do, and that the fats just went along with it IN those proteins as our automatic source of fats [in addition to conservative amounts of mayo, butter, but mostly lots of cold pressed x-virgin olive oil].

[MAMZELLE]

Most major sources of 'Atkins' and all LC diets.... Proteins: Meats [with the exception of Bacon], Fowl, and fish are 2 to 3 times more protein than fats (except eggs [unlimited] and cheese, both being close to equal in proteins and fats... but cheese is limited to no more than 4 oz. per day, so that's a limited source of a good fat ratio).

I was always under the impression that we're just not supposed to LIMIT our fats [nor proteins either., in fact] and that there was sufficient amounts of fats in the proteins, and didn't think it was necessary to make a concerted effort to eat exorbitant amounts of fats, other than the additional source of them also in fatty condiments (mayo, butter, which I hardly use, and mostly use olive oil instead).

Just wondering how to get the proteins lower in induction, and especially for someone who doesn't consume that much food in the first
place, especially when sticking to long term induction, where the variation of foods is so limited, and proteins are depended upon so heavily as the main staple.

[francine]

MAMZELLE: Thank you so much for posting that! I have been confused on that too. Anxiously awaiting an answer from the Nutritionist!

[W8BGONE]

How do you figure this out? I know it sounds silly but I tried and it is not making sense. Examle: today my totals are 94 G protein, 29 G carb, 120 G fat, and a total of 1570 calories. What is my percentages and how did you figure it? Thanks so much. I am really trying to teak as I have not lost in six weeks and I have been clean the whole time.

[PiDevil]

30% of 1570 calories is 471 calories. Divide the 471 by 4 to get the number of grams of protein to get 117.75. There are 4 calories per gram of protein.

Just so you know, there are also 4 cal/gram of carb & 9 cal/gram of fat.

[MAMZELLE]

You're very welcome, Francine. It's been boggling my mind since I came here because I've never heard to 'lower protein' before [though since even that turns to glucose, it does make sense *IF* eating an overabundance, but that goes for ALL foods, and I thought that protein was the lesser of all evils when eating at all] but also never heard that
we should have more fats than protein, and it doesn't even come that way naturally in the main sources that we eat most abundantly: ''animals'', and animal products, which are all 2/3rds protein, and our main source of food, so we'd have to supplement so much fat to bring that percentage/ratio so high, and just finally had the perfect 'window' to ask/address it 'here'. I'm sure many are scratching their heads about this, as we are.

Dr. Atkins said not to stuff ourselves and to "only eat enough to assuage hunger", [which is EASY since hunger dissipates on this diet and I personally can't eat that much of ANYTHING, and never eat big 'meals' only nibble tiny amounts mostly all throughout the day and night, spreading out what I do eat, which has always been my
eating methods], but as far as I know, he never said to specifically watch our 'protein' intake, or to eat a ratio of more fats, and I don't remember that being in his book..... if it's in the new ones, then I'd genuinly like to know how to 'pull that off' lol.


(Of course I occasionally snack on celery with cream cheese, but rarely because I'm not a raw celery lover, and although I do love tons of it raw in tuna, egg salad, etc., and also LOVE it cooked into soups and crock pot meals, [unfortunately yealding more carbs when cooked] snacking on raw celery just doesn't 'do' it for me..... and 'snacking' on vegs are out of the question, because they are filled with carbs, and I just have my maximum suggested portions of them..... and salad seems to stall me).

I've been uncomfortable with this diet for the first time in decades because now I feel afraid of, and hesitant about protein along with everything else we have to cut out, whereas I never was before, nor even had to think about that, though I have continued eating protein as I always have because there's nothing ELSE to mainly eat to my
knowledge, but it's now been doing a job on my HEAD as I do stick mostly to protein, because I can't figure out how to NOT eat the amount of protein that I always have.... IN RATIO TO FATS.

Never thought of protein as one of the enemies, but only as what we DO have to turn to, and always thought it unlimited, and a blessing, and the only thing that WAS the best and ONLY alternative when hungry.

I've been feeling like I've been losing my best friend lol, because protein has been my staple of life according to this diet, and I thought we just should not AVOID fats.... but didn't think we should stuff ourselves with them and I don't feel comfortable with doing that excessively.

I never count nor measure anything but just naturally know how much should be eaten in general of all food portions, and never even 'need' more but the ratio to FATS is now what I'm perplexed about. I don't LIMIT my fats, and feel free to eat the best tasting fats in meat [which DOES make them taste better] and the fat from bacon doesn't concern me nor in other foods, but didn't know we should force fats and so much of them, than naturally do come in the proteins we're eating, which DOES come to less than protein.

I don't even know how it's possible to do. Even if eating less protein, the ratio of it to fats stays the same, unless we eat fats by themselves. [There is, of course, a ''fat fast'' refered to in the book[s] by a doctor or a method starting starting with a K, [I 'think'] but that's not what anyone is referring to here... and that method would be ONLY fats]. Okay, I'm just repeating myself....... so I'll keep my mouth shut, and lets wait and see. :-)

[LindaSue]

I eat a lot like you do, MAMZELLE. Little bits throughout the day. I can understand having a sort of rule of thumb as far as how much protein to fat to carbs, etc., but I'd go nuts if I had to do math every time I eat something. When I first tried doing the Atkins diet a few years ago, I was counting carbs, but it was making me crazy doing that so I kept quitting and going back to my old bad habits. I knew low carb could work for weight loss so I eventually decided to give it one last shot, but I vowed that I would not count ANYTHING. I would eat allowed foods and eat only until I wasn't hungry anymore and never stuffed. I didn't count anything and I lost 50 pounds steadily, if not quickly, and never had a single stall until I reached my goal a little over a year ago.

For me, to make this a WOE for life, I don't want to have to do math and science every day for the rest of my life. I just want to eat good, nutritious food and stay slim. It's working for me and I see no reason to change that.

By the way, when my husband saw the amazing results I had, he decided that he wanted to go low carb too, but I told him that I would never count carbs for him. I'd do the cooking and I'd serve up his food in portions I thought appropriate for a man. He lost over 30 pounds eating the same way I did and NO COUNTING.

[francine]

For me, to make this a WOE for life, I don't want to have to do math and science every day for the rest of my life. I just want to eat good, nutritious food and stay slim. It's working for me and I see no reason to change that.

Linda Sue: You hit the nail on the head also along with what Mamzelle has said. I didn't think we had to worry about protein as long as we just ate till hunger was sated. And I think that's what turns alot of people off to this if they have to do math calculations in order to eat!

I'm a nibbler also but on the "right" things and I try to stick with whole foods and no frankens or fillers. I realized pepperoni and hotdogs and salami must have too much sodium or something since I did a one week "experiment" and bloated like a baloon!


Let's hope for an answer soon!

[MAMZELLE]

Exactly, Linda.... and after a while, [I would even venture to say the first WEEK or two, for newcomers just to get themselves acclimated to it]..... NO counting and measuring is needed, except refreshing on carb counts once in a while. This all becomes second nature and SHOULD when on it for life, as it has for me. But I never even counted
since day one, so many years ago and as long as we have the basic knowledge and education of this regimen, and of foods in general and how they effect our health and our weight, it becomes automatic without calculators and scales, because that ISN'T conducive to any 'way of life'.

I originally got myself familiar with carb counts, but even STILL always have Atkins' counters all over the house lol [both the separate paperback counters, and also the one's in his main books and others] and easy to grab immediately if I'm curious about something but that's rare. And I hate math lol and could never be a slave to it.

But it's this protein/fat thing that has me wondering. I happen to LOVE protein, and always have, even more than sweets or starches and other things.... though of course I have my favorites in that area too, :-( ....which I've learned to merely do without, and LOVE snacking on protein instead, which is WHY I've been able to so EASILY adhere to this
way of eating, and although I KNOW I'm getting lots of fats, I also know that it's not as much as protein even though I never 'limit' my fats..... it just couldn't have ever been more than protein even if moderately eating minimum amounts of anything, which I do when on this when in keytosis, which has always been maintained non-stop.

You are very lucky to have no stalls. My metabolism and sugar imbalance gives me stalls even when in deep purple keytosis, and they're maddening but I've learned to forge on and there are reasons and they will be only temporary, and the most important thing to me is eating right for my blood sugar, nomatter what the scale shows.... and there are also reasons for the scale to stand still, so I TRY not to let it bother me at this stage and to ignore it as much as I can and that this is making me healthier if nothing else...... can't get past my 9 lbs yet, but didn't even expect to lose THAT much with this sugar condition, no excercise [just because I HATE it... but have ordered an excercise TUBE
thingy lol] and being pretty sedentary, so feel that I'm way ahead of the game, and know more will come, and my 9 is like another's 20 or 30.

So great about your husband. Congrats to both of you. He's so lucky to have you!

Francine... a lot of people are now eating sausages and also the things you've mentioned and I don't understand that. We were NEVER allowed those filler meats and I've never touched them even when my sugar was normal and wasn't as strict for so long as I am now. Never know what's in those things, and I don't even trust the labels. They were always a no no where 'Dr' Atkins was concerned [at least originally].

There are too many wonderful fresh, natural UN-adulterated meats, chicken and fish to choose from, which is what this healthy way of eating, to me, is all about. Don't know why anyone even needs those things, but I guess to each his own. Bacon is a good substitute for them, anyway..... although the nitrates are hard to avoid in that too, but after looking around everywhere, I can't find it without nitrates..... but HAVE at Shoprite, [their own brand, and more meaty and thick, and great tasting than any other bacon I've ever tasted]....and completely without sugar and LOW sodium, at least.

[DonnaD]

I just started induction this week. Always had doubts about this way of eating. I finally get a little more of a comfort level by reading posts on this site and now I come here and

[MAMZELLE]

Did you read the post I left you on the other [Newbies] thread? Also... do you know about clicking on ''Subscribe to this thread" [below here on the bottom] so you'll know when replies do come in to what you've posted?

[Atkins_Nutritionist]

When doing Atkins appropriately this is the ratio we have found to be true more often than not. This does not mean that the % does not change. This rule of thumb is primarily for those who track nutrients on fitday or other programs.

However, you do not want to eat too much protein.

You are right, when you eat protein you do get both protein and fat. You will also get fat from olive oil, mayo, nuts...Because fat has more cals/gram (9cals. vs. 4 cals), if you eat equal amounts of fat and protein fat will contribute double the amount of cals, ie 65% to 30%.

I do not think you need to start tracking specific nutrients if you are losing weight. It does make things unnecessarily more complicated.

I hope I explained and answered your questions. If not please let me know.

[MAMZELLE]

Thank you. But on the ''induction'' level, [which I said I was referring to, and which many prolong indefinitely, therefore it's not a mere 2 weeks]..... mayo is limited, and nuts are totally forbidden, [just to use two of the three examples of things that you mentioned above containing fats that could help raise the fat ratio] along with countless other high fat foods which are limited because of their carb content which could rapidly build up if used in quantities enough to
raise the fat ratio [avacados, etc.].

...so I still don't see how fats can be raised higher than protein on INDUCTION, since that is the level where carbs are so limited, and even most of the fatty foods do have them, and are restricted either totally, or partially.


In other words.... most of the NO CARB or LOWEST CARB fats are only contained IN protein therefore protein is impossible to avoid having along with the fats. The other fats have carbs. I'm sure there are more, but two no protein and only pure fat items off the top of my head at the moment, that don't have carbs OR protein along with it ARE olive oil and butter... and which I said in my first post.... we'd have to either drink from the bottle [oils] or spoon from the butter container, or stick to get pure fat to make up for and exceed our quantity of daily protein...... on induction.

[BTW....many, or most NUTS also have even more protein than fats and tons of carbs... so they're unfortunately also not allowed on induction, anyway, and also 'somewhat' restricted even after induction, so nuts are even doubly a moot point as an abundant source of fats to combat protein, since eating them is only one more example of the protein automatically being consumed along with the fat... not to mention their tons of carbs.

It's a viscious protein cycle, which I can't see being avoided, nor how we can lower our protein ratio since it seems to be in practically ALL consumable, and palatable foods. And we are told to not use large amounts of mayo along with them.]

This is why I always assumed that the consumption of protein and fat ratio as they NATURALLY appear in foods are correct, and that protein was first on the list, then fats .... as they were 'devinely' [so to speak lol] set forth to us in their proper order of quantity consumption

[MAMZELLE]

That also accounts for the fact that we should have seen the signs set forth long ago, in what the animals had to offer.... the fats along WITH the proteins, and that it WAS healthy, instead of the insane FAT-FREE craze for a couple of decades.

The animals had the mix right there, set forth right in front of our eyes, and it took Dr. Atkins to recognize it and make it PUBLIC that the fats were healthy [as others did NOT run with that ball..... who also knew before him] and that what we see is what we SHOULD get in our proteins and fats from the ground and from the animals without tampering with nature, and eliminating either. But I can't help thinking that's also WHY the ratio is as it is, and why it's such a struggle to get more pure fats than protein, which I see as practically impossible without a struggle.... unless on a total fat 'fast'.

[zelia]

Mamzelle, I think the answer to part of your question is that meat and poultry were a lot fatter 30+ years ago than they are now. I have an old (1970) USDA booklet called "Nutritive Value of Foods," and the standard trim on meat was 1/2" of fat. The meat I see at supermarkets today is trimmed to 1/8"-0".

from 1970 USDA publication:
Beef, 3 oz (85g), sirloin, 1/2" trim, lean and fat, broiled

330 cal
20g protein x 4 cal/g = 80 cal = 24% of cal from protein
27g fat x 9 cal/g = 243 cal = 74% of cal from fat

[These don't add up to 100% because of rounding.]

Current values from http://www.ardilla.umn.edu/nutritiontools/USDA/
Beef with a 1/2" trim is still sold, but it's all prime = expensive and goes to restaurants. Choice and select grades are listed with trims of 1/4", 1/8", and 0", so the fattest beef you'll find in a supermarket is, at most, only half as fat as the standard trim in 1972 when Dr. A's first book was published.

The current USDA database terminology doesn't use sirloin, so I guessed on the cut.

Beef, short loin, top loin, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 1/4" fat, choice, cooked, broiled, 85g

253 cal
22g protein x 4 cal/g = 88 cal = 35% of cal from protein
18g fat x 9 cal/g = 162 cal = 64% of cal from fat

Leanest:
Beef, short loin, top loin, separable lean only, trimmed to 0" fat, select, cooked, broiled, 85g

156 cal
24g protein x 4 cal/g = 96 cal = 62% of cal from protein
6g fat x 9 cal/g = 54 cal = 35% of cal from fat

In 1970, the standard trim of beef had 20% less protein, more than 4x as much fat and more than 2x as many calories as the leanest beef now on the market. If you want to eat the protein:fat proportions Dr. Atkins had in mind in 1972, your beef will need liberal supplements of fat.

[MAMZELLE]

I do understand what you're saying, and that was very thorough, and I'm sure; quite accurate. But I don't know what percentage conditions were in 72, I was practically a kid and wasn't paying attention to fat percentages of meat lol just ate the foods that Atkins told me to eat, and UNlimited... I'm talking about right NOW and I don't buy the leanest meats that are 'available' if you choose them, but so are the others, and I know that I stick to mostly protein in induction because other than cheese, mayo, olive oil, I can't survive on what's left if I cut down even my protein because I barely even eat much of THAT except on days where I am hungry and always try to reach for protein because there's not much else on my strict version of induction, since I limit my carbs so drastically.

I couldn't GET lower in even protein, than I already am in general because of not even being hungry and much of the time forcing myself to eat ANYTHING. If I have to worry about PROTEIN too, and eating even LESS of it than fats..... then I'm a gonner. Without my protein, I'd be knawing on my white furry Flokati Deco bedspread next, and I'd kinda like to keep that thing around a while longer! lol