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-   -   Last Cry for Help - Stalled in Induction and Can't Get Out! (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/atkins-induction/794264-last-cry-help-stalled-induction-cant-get-out.html)

Dayton 01-11-2013 08:09 PM

Last Cry for Help - Stalled in Induction and Can't Get Out!
This is my last cry for help. I am a few days from throwing in the towel but am reaching out to find some solutions to my Induction Phase problems.
I haven't lost a single pound in 18 days, in fact, all I do is yo-yo the same 4 pds up and down everyday. I am reaching out to all of you to see if there is some solution to my problem.

Here are the facts:

34 year old Male
Currently 316 pds
Started Atkins on Nov. 20th 2011 (it is January 11th 2012 today)
Lost 25 pds in 2 weeks and 3 pds since.

I eat 3-5 times a day. Here is a typical day of meals for me:

Morning around 9am:
4 scrambled eggs, 4 tablespoons of butter to cook eggs, steak'ems (usually 4-6 oz) or bacon(4-6 oz) or whatever left over chicken or seafood I had at dinner the night before. Water to drink, usually 16-20 ounces.

Go to work - work is sedentary (computer work)

Eat lunch sometime between 12pm-2pm. Time varies based upon work load.
Lunch Menu:
Typically 4-8 ounces of meat like steak'ems, steak, chicken, snow crab legs (not the ones with carbs but the no carb crablegs), always 4 tablespoons or more of butter and I typically have my first veggies at lunch (I only have 1 of 2 veggies ever, a salad with iceberg lettuce, 1/2 inch of cucumbers raw, 2-4 ounces of grilled chicken, mozz or chedder cheese 1 oz, 1 egg, and Caesar dressing net 2 carbs or I just have broccoli with butter usually 2-3 ounces). 20-40 ounces of water

Dinner usually around 6-8pm. time varies based upon work load
Dinner Menu:
I usually eat a larger dinner. Usually 1 full stick of butter, 8 oz of a protein like chicken, steak, steak 'ems, bacon, eggs or any combination of the above. Another salad or broccoli usually the same size as above listed. Usually 20-40 ounces of water depending on how thirsty I am.

Snack during the day.
I usually have 1-3 snacks per day. Pepperoni is my #1 snack, followed by bacon strips. And I also have more water which varies from 8 ounces to 40 ounces

(Note about my Bacon. Bacon is cured in sugar, no way to escape it, however, I learned you can wash off a lot of the curing in a meat. So I wash all bacon in warm water for 5 minutes before cooking it in butter. You'll be amazed at how much of the salt and sugar taste disappears. Warning: once you start washing your bacon, you can't tolerate bacon that isn't washed anymore, it will be too salty to you.)

back to my snacks...

lately I started eating Fat Bombs.... in the last 3 days. They are delicious and FULL OF FAT. My net carbs per 20 fat booms are 12 net carbs (if you made fat bombs before, you know that isn't a lot at all for an entire batch that last a whole week). Not sure their effect on the body yet since I only have been using them for 3 days now.

This is pretty much it. Boring eating, same thing every day after day.

Now about my Ketosticks. They mainly stay in small to moderate range everyday but it doesn't make a difference in my weight loss.

Water intake: I drink 60-120 ounces everyday. No pop.

Artificial sweeteners: I never had artificial sweeteners until this week. I needed a change of pace from water and did some research and found the Dasani Drops (HALLELUJAH! Praise be to God for this Creation!) All the ingredients are Atkins friendly with 0 total carbs. I don't have it often, maybe 20-40 ounces per day with drops of Dasani and its only been this week so it hasn't played a part in my long term problem.

Exercise: Non existent. Don't exercise. This I will say has been my major detour from the book. However, if this diet will work then it will work without exercise. I can count carbs and not exercise and lose 1-2 pds per week so in my opinion, this isn't the reason for the stall.

Special Notes about my Case:

This is the 4th time I started Induction Phase in my life.
The first time was in my 20s, I lost 50 pds. The second time was in my late 20s, I lost 40 pds. Third time I lost 6 pds in late 20s.

Physical Health: Besides being over 300 pds, I'm in great health. Blood pressure 117/74, A1C is 4.8, fasting blood glucose average is 90. Probably have fatty liver at my size. Never smoked, don't drink alcohol at all or have any recreational drugs ever in my life.

Atkins symptoms: I still have a headache everyday and have had it since Day 2 of Induction. It never leaves. I don't take NSAIDs because I don't want to slow down weight loss but I would LOVE to have Advil to cure this headache. Still get cramps in toes, especially on days where my ketosticks are Moderate to Large. Not much back pain anymore, thank goodness. Still a little foggy headed and blurred vision since Day 3 of Atkins. I know these are common symptoms on Induction however they are still lingering around. I am use to headache so some days I forget its there but it is there everyday, all day.

Arm pits need constant washing and breath needs constant brushing and Listerine mouthwash to keep ketone breath at bay. But honestly, nothing really works for this as you all know.

Constipation: None whatsoever. In fact, I'd say the opposite. Talk about diuretic, wow. Number 1 and Number 2 work just fine. Number 2 is 4-8 times per day.

I count my carbs daily and I average 6 net carbs per day since I started Atkins on the 20th of November, even with the Mountain of lettuce I eat each day.

There you have it. That's my boring eating life. I don't know why Induction isn't working but if you can diagnose this, I would be greatly helpful. The side effects from the diet for such little gain is starting to outweigh the benefits. Since i have a sedentary lifestyle, atkins fits my life perfectly, however I need for induction to work so I can keep up the meal plan.

I thought about Fat Fast, however, it doesn't make sense to me because no one can keep that eating plan up, it isn't a long term solution. So I would rather have someone diagnose the problem, fix it, then go to the next levels with Induction to get within 10 pds of my goal weight. I keep holding on hoping my weight loss will start again, heck I'll even take 1-2 pds a week w/out exercising. I tell myself, "If I just keep at it, my body will give up and finally let the pounds go instead of hold on to them," but i feel like I'm delusional.

Please help.
Thanks for all of your help in advance!

Skinnurse 01-11-2013 08:54 PM

I think you have the year wrong love, it's 2013

Also, I would start counting calories. just a quick glance you are consuming way too many calories. even though atkins you dont really need to count them, there is sort of a limit in calories when trying to lose weight.

just in butter a day you are consuming 1600 calories That ALONE is the average persons daily caloric value give or take a few depending on height etc. I would recommend some sort of calorie tracker like to compute for the next few days. You need to burn or reduce your intake by 3,500 calories JUST to lose one single pound. Your intake of butter per week is 11,300 calories if you just cut the butter you would lose 3.5 pounds a week.

Granted you need to fat so you dont want to cut all butter but you need to recheck the amount you are eating a day and make some adjustments

Skinnurse 01-11-2013 08:57 PM

Also dont look at your ketostix for color changes...If it's dark today and light tomorrow that does not indicate being in deeper ketosis, it just registers how diluted your urine is. As long as it is changing into any range of ketosis, you are in ketosis

DairyQueen 01-11-2013 09:43 PM

OK - you're in ketosis, and that's good. You seem to be doing well on carbs, although I'd guess that you're consuming more than 20 carbs per day (how many cups of vegetables are you eating? and are they raw or cooked?)
I agree with Skinnurse -- Atkins tells you that you don't need to count calories because the fat and protein are supposed to be self-limiting -- but you are eating way way more calories than you are burning and that's why you're not losing.
How tall are you? There are many calculators on the web which can tell you how many calories someone your age and height and weight needs to maintain your weight with a sedentary lifestyle. I checked several using 5' 10" -- one is not a very good calculator - it's associated with someone who fell from grace in the sports world recently. THe others are similar - and a 5'10" tall 34 year old who weighs 316 pounds needs about 2700 calories a day to maintain that weight. The same person who weighs 190 needs 2033 or so to maintain that weight. From a brief look at what you're eating every day, it is at least 4000 calories, not counting your snacks and fat bombs! Can you cut your caloric intake in half? Would you starve? I'd definitely cut back on the butter and see what happens. One stick of butter is more than 800 calories. And maybe halve the bacon? Anyway, that's what I'd do. Cut the amount of food you're eating in half. I know it sounds extreme, but I bet that you'll see results in four days. I know that some people will tell you to up the fat, but that's not what I'd do right now.

DairyQueen 01-11-2013 10:01 PM

Also, there's nothing wrong with eating the same boring things every day.... as long as you are losing weight!! I really don't get bored eating the same things every day, because i am usually too busy to even think about what I'm eating!

Dayton 01-11-2013 10:38 PM

Not use to the Year change yet. good catch.

Yes, I do consume a lot of butter. I'll give that a try and see if it gets things going. I'll try limiting the butter and report back.

Skinnurse 01-11-2013 10:45 PM

jump in on some of the other boards. it will help out with the support aspect. Stick around! We are all here to do this together! I cycled last year and lost all of my weight but had surgery and blah put it all back.

biancasteeplechase 01-12-2013 11:44 AM

Atkins does recommend getting some extra sodium to help with the headaches and the like - he says that just eating salty food isn't necessarily enough. In addition to what other people are telling you, you might try adding a couple of cups a day of beef or chicken broth. (Not the low-sodium kind!)

Dayton 01-12-2013 12:48 PM

Here are the changes I am doing:

Only 4-6 ounces of protein per meal now.

max 2 tablespoons of butter to cook

killed fat bombs for now

trying to reach 15 net carbs with green veggies (this is going to be hard. that is a ridiculous high about of veggies)

Interesting suggestion about sodium....Potassium tend to contribute to cramping more than sodium but increase in sodium is recommended with the high level of sodium that exist in the cured meats we eat...I am going to sleep on that one, not sure about that implementation, but may be open to more potassium since I am not eating fruits to replace that mineral.

DairyQueen 01-12-2013 05:55 PM

don't sweat it if you can't eat that many vegetables. Which are your favorite ones?
atkins says 12-15 grams of carbs in your vegetables - he sez that translates to 4cups of lettuce and two cups of other vegetables like broccoli. well, even though that may be fewer than 15 net carbs, just eat that amount. Let us know how you feel!
brussels sprouts have 6.5 in cup, cooked and it's almost the same with green beans.
don't worry too much.
sometimes I will take a diuretic if I've worked overnight or have just sat for hours on hours - and that very occasionally results in leg cramps. I take a potassium supplement if that happens and it works every time.

ravenrose 01-13-2013 02:57 PM

have you had your thyroid tested? try to get the free T3 and free T4, not just the indirect TSH they try to get away with. sometimes a low thyroid can make a lot of difference.

Dayton 01-13-2013 06:00 PM

No, I've never had my thyroid checked. No family history at all of people with hypo or hyper hypothyroidism.

DairyQueen 01-14-2013 08:24 AM

So how's it going?

Dayton 01-14-2013 01:31 PM

Thanks for asking Dairy Queen.

I weighed in today at 313.8, so still flat from day to day.

Headache is a little less from all the water I've been drinking but still there.
I was more hungry than usual yesterday, not carb hungry but had to snack a little more than usual to be satisfied. Probably due to the drastic reduction in calories since Friday.

hoped for some movement today but we will have to wait and see how tomorrow goes!

DairyQueen 01-14-2013 05:58 PM

ok - please keep us posted!

Dayton 01-16-2013 07:55 PM

Unfortunate update today.

Weight 314.2

This has been a very trying situation. Although everyone's advice has been welcomed and I have implemented most of them, the result hasn't changed. Although many of you say give it more time, today marks 30 day mark of not a single pound lost. This signals a bigger problem to me beyond calories consumed or water intake.

I have reviewed the atkins book and he states if you have 30 days or more of 0 weight loss, then you are in a true stall. After cutting all hidden carbs, calorie reduction, water intake, and supplement intake, I am taking dr. atkins advice to go on a Fat Fast to jump start my bodies consumption of body fat.

This is not the direction I had hoped to go however, I have reached the end of my patience. I will report to you all if this overcame the issue.

Thank you all for your willingness to help. I will keep you updated.

Mimosa23 01-17-2013 02:59 AM

Hi Dayton,

May I suggest an online food logging tool as well? You can log everything you eat and drink and exact quantities, and it will show you a true picture of everything, including carb, protein and fat ratios and your calories.

Before I started logging my food, and guestimating amounts I was not really losing weight. It was a real eyeopener to find that I was over on carbs (even though I thought I was way under) and way over on calories.

I have changed my ratios of fat, protein and carbs, and I am now not hungry and I am losing weight and inches! Of cours not in the tens of pounds a week, but a nice steady loss nonetheless. Since my Low Carb restart and food logging restart exactly two weeks ago I have lost 7.8lbs... For me this is amazing, even in induction!

I hope you find what is stalling you, wishing you lots of succes! Do pop in and let us know how you are getting on!

Skinnurse 01-18-2013 10:48 AM

I agree, try using a calorie tracker. It will be great to log carbs, fat, calories etc while having the support of this fantastic page here. We are here to help you through it! You can do it

Dayton 01-19-2013 08:47 AM

Interesting how the version change so much. I read the latest book on Amazon. What I can say is so far it has been a success on the Fat Fast. I hit a new low of 312 this morning. I wanted to do a dance! I am excited again. Amazing how a little weightloss can get you going again :) The only thing I can stomach on this fat fast is the deviled eggs though, everything else isn't to my liking. So we'll see how long I can maintain eating deviled eggs at a 1,000 cal per day. Not long i would imagine.
Fortunately, after a week, I can move up to 1,200 cal and introduce bacon and beef again.

The vitamins have really helped with cramps, headaches, ketone breath, etc. Currently, I have a heavy duty multivitamin I take 2x per day (boy that pill is big!), I take L-car with acyl 400mg 5x per day (haven't got up to 5,000mg per day yet), potassium pills which I believe is responsible for the cramping going away, and Coenzyme Q-10.

I read Dr. Atkins section on Fat Fast and the basic concept is to "jump start" your body into preferring fat for burning. It is for a short duration (mainly due to the fact no one can handle eating a small menu for an extended period of time). Then you step your way up to Induction Phase again.

Thank you for your support and concerns, I listened to all of them and weighted the potential risk with the potential benefits and right now I feel the benefits of the Fat Fast outweight the possible downside. Since my weight loss isn't overly rapid at my size (was 313 but now 312 after a few days on it), I am not overly concerned with rapid weightloss beyond the safety measures at this time. I hope the weight loss will accelerate faster as I get longer into the fast.

I will keep you all updated.

Skinnurse 01-19-2013 10:17 AM

Great job Dayton!! I'm happy to hear you have pushed through that plateau

DairyQueen 01-20-2013 09:14 AM

Congratulations Dayton - please keep us updated. You might want to start a diary/journal in the journal section of this board. I take potassium when I get cramps, and I get cramps when I am dehydrated. anyway -- it's great that something is starting to work.

Dayton 01-20-2013 12:38 PM

Thank you very much! I will give an update tomorrow.

What I can say is I am out of my stall and back to weight loss.

And Yes, the potassium pills have worked great for the cramps, although I have to take a lot of them daily to keep them away, but I don't mind :)

Update tomorrow

Dayton 01-21-2013 10:18 AM

Update today:

Weight - 307.8 YEAH!

Finally broke through my stall in great fashion on the fat fast. I started the Fat Fast when I was 314 and over 6 pds of weight loss in 4 days! This is great. Ironically, I feel better on the fat fast than I did on Induction

Also, my ketostick read trace amounts. When I was on induction phase, it constantly read mostly moderate and I felt like crap.

I read some articles on this board that the ketosticks shouldn't read higher than trace on induction because that means your body isn't burning the excess energy it is creating from the fat stores. Without proper burning, then the fat stores will just take the excess and re-store what it can. I thought the concept made sense but I didnt' see how that was possible.

Where he we go....My body is burning those ketones and I barely have a ketone reading on my strips on the fat fast.

So far, the fat fast has had far fewer side effects than induction for me, less headaches, less cramping, less foggy headedness, more energy, better focus.

I don't know how much longer I can tolerate eating deviled eggs, but it does help me hang in there with far fewer side effects and finally weight loss!

This is how I imagined induction would work for me at my size :)

Dayton 01-22-2013 07:13 AM

Big day today's weigh-in:

Weigh-in 305pds YES!

Day 5 of Fat Fast starts off with a bang! So far so good.
However, I am sick of deviled eggs and my house stinks now from cooking them all the time
I and my family can't take them much longer so to save my marriage and my fatherhood, I am moving to the next step of 1,200 calories per day regimen of fat fast so I can eat bacon, steak 'ems and regular scrambled and poached eggs along with deviled eggs.

I will keep you updated tomorrow!

OICU812 01-22-2013 08:35 AM

Proud of you for stickintg with it - Congrats!

spirilis 01-22-2013 09:04 AM

Looks like you made a breakthrough, but I just wanted to relay that I've stalled on induction before (during my 1st atkins attempt)--I was snacking & eating WAY too much protein.

Stephen Phinney & Jeff Volek's "Art & Science of Low-Carbohydrate Living" offers a tidbit I don't recall seeing emphasized much in the Atkins book--Protein causes an insulin response, and provides substrate for glucose/fat production in the liver, your actual protein requirements are probably modest if you sit at a desk all day (I do too, IT systems administration type of work).

Phinney & Volek's book recommend 1.5g/kg lean body mass on the lower end of the range (probably appropriate for sedentary people), I don't know what my exact LBM is but I guess-timate it at 180lb (I'm 235 currently) by just finding out what a "healthy" weight is supposed to be per the BMI (body mass index), so for me 180lb (81kg) is around 120g of protein a day.

When you start examining the protein content of the various foods you eat, you might be surprised how quickly you can blow past that. I can usually tell when I have b/c I start getting tired within an hour or 2 after the meal.

Some more quick math-
8oz steak, going by a rough figure from nutritiondata.self.com, is around 56g protein. Two of those is 112g, nearly hitting the limit .... to say nothing of what happens with snacks in between, breakfast, etc.

I don't know what your height is but I've read my own metabolism (based on height, male gender, current weight) is probably around 2800 calories/day (awake, sitting)... Let's see how those add up:
30g carbs = 120 calories
120g protein = 480 calories
2200 calories left which need to come from fat--either my fat cells or dietary fat.
2200 calories is about 22 tablespoons of butter, a stick usually has 8 tablespoons.

There's fat in the various foods I eat, but let's say for a back-of-the-napkin computation that I eat 2 sticks of butter worth of fat (maybe 1 stick of actual butter and the rest comes from foods). That still means I'm netting a deficit of 600 calories a day, probably losing 1lb of fat every 5 days.

So generally speaking, look at the various meats & proteins you're eating and ration them... but add some fat as you wish to make the meal more filling. (I'm also sketchy of dropping calories too far when dieting, so that gives even more incentive to supplement with fat) It's probably possible to go overboard but you really have to add a LOT of fat to force a calorie-induced stall. Probably more likely excess protein gumming up the process.

Your protein requirements generally go up when you exercise & do body-building type of stuff, but outside of that it's probably lower than you think.
Or put it another way--The definition of "high-fat" foods that you're supposed to eat will probably look surprisingly greasier & fattier than you think, since the proper ratio of fat-to-protein should be quite high.

Dayton 01-22-2013 04:26 PM

Well said, one of the largest learning lessons from this is to keep the Fat/Protein ratio is just as important as the carb count.

I am learning a lot from this en devour.

cfine 02-03-2013 07:54 AM

Hi Dayton. How are you doing??

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