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Old 06-26-2012, 01:40 AM   #1
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Protein vs. Fat?

So, I am pretty sure I am not eating to many carbs, but how do I know if I am eating to much protein and to little fat?

I lost a lot (15 pounds) in my first week on Induction, and I was eating a lot more that I do know (4th week), mainly because I am not hungry all the time anymore, but have not lost anything since week 1.

I know the book says if you eat to much protein, that just gets converted to glucose again, and you stop burning fat, so I am afraid that I might be eating too much protein, but I don't really know how to add more fats to my diet - I guess years of low fat eating has made me to scared!

I basically fry my breakfast (eggs and bacon/LC sausage) in some olive oil, and add some butter to my veg. Further more I don't cut fat off steak, pork, etc, but also eat a lot of "clean" chicken meat (fillets).

I just got a calorie counter for my tablet, and you can set it to % or amount of carbs, protein and fat for each day - can someone advise on what a good split would be to use as a guideline for Atkins induction or LC in general?

Also, can you eat to few carbs on induction, and would this cause you to stall?

Thanks.
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:01 AM   #2
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Hey there, nice to meet you lizevdh! How are things in South Africa?


These are all good questions for a beginner.

The splits for a low carb lifestyle should be somewhere around 65% fat, 30% protein, and 5% OR LESS carbs. For induction, you want to be at 30grams or less a day. I try to stay as low as possible every day. Yesterday was my first day back and I had approximately 7.5 carbs total. You can survive perfectly well on little to no carbs, regardless of what your Dr, Oprah's Dr, or the mesomorph at the gym tells you.



Quote:
So, I am pretty sure I am not eating to many carbs, but how do I know if I am eating to much protein and to little fat?
If you eat too much protein, you get into what's known as the 'Zone of Misery' which means you're eating low carb but not low enough, combined with very high protein that causes a weird reaction in your body where you don't lose weight and also feel like absolute death! A lot of people get into this rut and quit low carbing because it makes them feel like this. I'm no Dr, and I'll have to research more specifics, but I bet you're eating too much protein and just a little too many carbs.


Stay at or below 125 grams of protein, and around 20 grams of carbs.

Quote:
I lost a lot (15 pounds) in my first week on Induction, and I was eating a lot more that I do know (4th week), mainly because I am not hungry all the time anymore, but have not lost anything since week 1.
Like i said, I bet you're eating too many carbs and too much protein combined. Try what i said. Also, make sure you're getting enough sodium. Your body purges sodium on this diet which is why you lose so much at first, the water weight comes off with the purged sodium. It also will give you more energy. I like eating pickles to keep mine up!


Quote:
I know the book says if you eat to much protein, that just gets converted to glucose again, and you stop burning fat, so I am afraid that I might be eating too much protein, but I don't really know how to add more fats to my diet - I guess years of low fat eating has made me to scared!
Don't be scared! Look at the old people -- the people in their 80's. What did they eat growing up and their whole lives? Whole eggs, real butter, bacon, etc. Avocados and certain nuts are another AMAZING source of good fats which you can eat and get a lot of other vitamins and minerals. Just be careful, because you can eat a lot of these and not realize it, and the carbs add up with any nut. I like to whip up my own cream and put it on top of a spoonful of Smuckers organic peanut butter. Mmmmm so good, and lots of good fat!
Remember, if low fat, high carbohydrates, high cardio workouts worked, we wouldn't be here talking now.

Quote:
I just got a calorie counter for my tablet, and you can set it to % or amount of carbs, protein and fat for each day - can someone advise on what a good split would be to use as a guideline for Atkins induction or LC in general?
Like I said, 65% fat, 30% protein, 5% or less carbs.


Quote:
Also, can you eat to few carbs on induction, and would this cause you to stall?
NO!!! You can't be too low carb IMO, and there's almost no research that shows that you can. If you get the green, leafy veggies with a low net carb count you are fine.

From what you're saying, you sound like a perfect candidate for someone who is in that 'Zone of Misery' where you're eating too many carbs combined with too much protein. Lower both, and up your fat. The weight will drop off of you, especially someone your size (no offense).

Good luck!!!

Last edited by CallMeCoach; 06-26-2012 at 06:07 AM..
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:30 AM   #3
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Hi Coach

South Africa is great - just very cold at the moment.

Thanks for answering all my questions - the info is a big help!

According to the ratio you provided, I have definitely been eating to much protein vs fat - probably about 65% protein to 30% fat, instead of the other way around. I will definitely start working on these, and see how it goes!
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:53 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizevdh View Post
Hi Coach

South Africa is great - just very cold at the moment.

Thanks for answering all my questions - the info is a big help!

According to the ratio you provided, I have definitely been eating to much protein vs fat - probably about 65% protein to 30% fat, instead of the other way around. I will definitely start working on these, and see how it goes!
Good deal.


Check out this site, lots of really, really good info here:


The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:58 AM   #5
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Butter
Cream cheese
Coconut oil
Olives (Watch portion sizes)
Avocado (watch portion sizes)
Cheese
Sour cream
Flaxseed meal

Toss some cheese on those eggs. Or better still, scramble them with 4 black olives stuffed with cream cheese.

Put some sliced avocado on your salad, and use lots of home-made ranch dressing.
(Ranch Dressing:
1 cup mayonnaise
1/2 cup sour cream
1/2 teaspoon dried chives
1/2 teaspoon dried parsley
1/2 teaspoon dried dill weed
1/4 teaspoon garlic powder
1/4 teaspoon onion powder
1/8 teaspoon salt
1/8 teaspoon ground black pepper
Directions
In a large bowl, whisk together the mayonnaise, sour cream, chives, parsley, dill, garlic powder, onion powder, salt and pepper. Cover and refrigerate for 30 minutes before serving.)

Make a quick Alfredo sauce and pour it over your steamed veggies and chicken.

Alfredo
Take about a cup of heavy cream, a stick of butter, and around half a cup of mozzarella and fresh parmesan. The measurements are really arbitrary -- we never actually measure when we make it! Stir them together over low heat until all melted. (This doesn't take long.) Sauce will thicken as it cools.

You can also add some garlic (careful -- garlic is carb-y!), mushrooms, etc.

Leftover Alfredo goes GREAT in scrambled eggs the next morning, and gives them a wonderful fat-boost.

Whenever my weight-loss starts to slow, I up my fat-intake. It can be easy to let it drop off, without noticing.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:14 PM   #6
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Thanks LiterateGriffen!

These recipes sound great and will definitely help me add some fat without having to fry everything in oil and butter (my stomach is definitely still adjusting to the oily-er fried food, and I have been wondering how I can up my fat intake without having to fry even more) !

I am going to make both of these tonight - will they keep for a few days in the fridge if I make a big batch and divide it into portions? I like to cook big "meals" a couple of times a week and divide them up to have something ready to pack for lunch at work.
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:40 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizevdh View Post
Thanks LiterateGriffen!

These recipes sound great and will definitely help me add some fat without having to fry everything in oil and butter (my stomach is definitely still adjusting to the oily-er fried food, and I have been wondering how I can up my fat intake without having to fry even more) !

I am going to make both of these tonight - will they keep for a few days in the fridge if I make a big batch and divide it into portions? I like to cook big "meals" a couple of times a week and divide them up to have something ready to pack for lunch at work.
Yes, cooking big meals and having them ready at a moments notice is key. Getting a cooler with an ice-pack is also recommended if you're going to be out all day, or even think you will be somewhere that it will be hard to stay on track.

Don't forget the avocados and nuts for good fat sources. They both provide a lot of other nutrients, especially the avocados.


Also, the best fat you could ever consume in your life IMO is coconut oil. I use it to cook everything, and it's a medium chain triglyceride, which means it's treated like a protein in your body: your body won't store any of it as fat. Here is a link to give you the low-down on it. Always get organic and cold pressed. I buy large glass jars of it online (32 ounces) and use it for all of my baking and frying. It's not like other oils than can be bad for you when cooked at high heat levels. It also is a great for helping to keep you from getting sick - it's supposed to fight against bacteria and viruses.


Avocados and coconut oil, God's two most perfect foods! (Oh, and bacon, too. Mmmmm)

:-)


Health Benefits of Coconut Oil
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:04 AM   #8
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I don't actually eat much fried food, aside from the occasional stir-fry.

My oils come from sources like I listed above. A lot of it from either sauces or creamcheese/butter/coconut oil.

The dressing keeps great. We actually keep ours in a Marie's Ranch Dressing jar. (It's wide-mouthed, and glass, so easy to pour into.) It's actually BETTER after its sat overnight.

The Alfredo tends to solidify in the fridge overnight. You can either gently melt it in a pot, OR just scoop out a chunk and mix it with scrambled eggs as they cook. (I actually love this, and it makes the eggs VERY satisfying.)

Coach is right about the coconut oil (CO). It's wonderful stuff, amazingly healthy for you. Post-induction, I use it and flax seed meal (another amazingly healthy food and great Omega 3 oil source) to make "cookies". The only "sweet" in them comes from the spices and the CO, but most folks don't even notice that fact. So I end up with a yummy "treat" that's high in fat, incredibly nutrient-dense, and can double as a small meal.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiterateGriffin View Post
I don't actually eat much fried food, aside from the occasional stir-fry.

My oils come from sources like I listed above. A lot of it from either sauces or creamcheese/butter/coconut oil.

The dressing keeps great. We actually keep ours in a Marie's Ranch Dressing jar. (It's wide-mouthed, and glass, so easy to pour into.) It's actually BETTER after its sat overnight.

The Alfredo tends to solidify in the fridge overnight. You can either gently melt it in a pot, OR just scoop out a chunk and mix it with scrambled eggs as they cook. (I actually love this, and it makes the eggs VERY satisfying.)

Coach is right about the coconut oil (CO). It's wonderful stuff, amazingly healthy for you. Post-induction, I use it and flax seed meal (another amazingly healthy food and great Omega 3 oil source) to make "cookies". The only "sweet" in them comes from the spices and the CO, but most folks don't even notice that fact. So I end up with a yummy "treat" that's high in fat, incredibly nutrient-dense, and can double as a small meal.


Why do you use CO only post induction?



Lizedvh, let me know if upping the fat and relaxing on the protein helps in the weight loss.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:32 PM   #10
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lol No... I only used the flax and almond meal post-induction. (You know -- the other ingredients for the cookies.) But I can see how it would read the way you took it.

Quite honestly, I also only "discovered" it post-induction. :P I flatly refuse to use a thing I haven't either heard of or seen. (Mostly, because under those conditions, I haven't bought any.)
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiterateGriffin View Post
lol No... I only used the flax and almond meal post-induction. (You know -- the other ingredients for the cookies.) But I can see how it would read the way you took it.

Quite honestly, I also only "discovered" it post-induction. :P I flatly refuse to use a thing I haven't either heard of or seen. (Mostly, because under those conditions, I haven't bought any.)
Oh I see...yeah it read funny.



Coconut oil is aaaaaaaammmmmmmmmaaaaaaazzzzzzzziiiiiinnnnnnnnnggg gggg!
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:19 PM   #12
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WOE: Standard Ketogenic
It takes a pretty large amount of protein for gluconeogenesis to start to take over ketosis.

However protein is EXTREMELY important for body recomposition. I personally do low carb for the muscle sparing effect it has over standard dieting.

When we lose weight, we lose fat, connective tissue, water, and muscle. It's unavoidable, to lose fat without losing some lean body tissue with it. However getting enough protein helps to mitigate muscle loss.

Getting around 1g protein/lb of LBM is what you want to shoot for to preserve your muscle mass. After all muscle tissue makes up a substantial part of your metabolism. Basically you lose your muscle, your metabolism goes down.

Figuring out your LBM can be kinda tricky. The easiest methods are the bodyfat monitors, and taping. Neither of them are super accurate, but a ballpark is all you really need.

Once you find your bodyfat %, convert that to your weight. Total weight-weight in fat= lean body mass.

Now my diet is somewhat different then atkins, and my macro ratios are actually a little bit off ( I get slightly more protein, and slightly less fat). Most of my dietary calories are still from fat, but I have a slightly higher proportion from protein.
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Old 06-28-2012, 07:22 PM   #13
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Medic,

I understand what you are saying.

I am basing my information on the Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution, wherin he cites the work of Professor Alan Kekwick and Dr. Gaston Pawan.

Their studies took 3 groups of people and put them on low-calorie diets with varying compositions -- 90% carb, 90% protein, and 90% fat.

When they checked for lean body mass lost, they found that the protein group lost less muscle than the high carb group. But the LEAST lean-muscle-mass (virtually none) was lost by the group eating a 90% fat diet.

One of their studies is here:
/Kekwick-Pawan-1956-Lancet
Here is another: METABOLIC STUDIES ON THE RELATIONSHIP OF DIET TO ENERGY BALANCE AND BODY MASS DURING WEIGHT REDUCTION IN MICE - Kekwick - 2006 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library

There was more, but I'm having trouble finding it on short notice. (Gimme a day or two to skim.)

All the builders I know push protein. And yet, I'm not aware of any studies that study the percent of lean body mass lost on high protein diets vs high fat/low protein/low carb diets. If you could share some, I'd appreciate it.

I do know that I lose more on a high-fat diet, and body-composition testing shows my lean body mass increasing while my weight is decreasing.

I'm not at all claiming to have more knowledge on the subject than you -- I'm just telling you what my sources are.
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:12 AM   #14
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LG,

I'm not advocating a high protein diet by any means. Basically I was just saying for the most muscle sparring, you should try to get 1g pro/lb of LBM.

Eating adequate protein will still be a high fat diet.

To use myself as an example...
My LBM (ballparked) is around 150lbs. I try to eat about 150g pro everyday, which is 600 calories. I average 20-25g carbs so lets just round off to an even 100 calories. I generally eat around 1700 per day, so the other 1000 calories come from fat.

So my ratios really aren't too far out of whack, despite getting "enough" protein.
About 5% carbs/60% fat, and 35% protein.

I was just trying to place some emphasis on not cutting protein TOO low.
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:00 AM   #15
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I was just snooping around and so happy to find this thread. You are all a wealth of knowledge. So much of this is new to me. I have been on and off LC for decades, but I guess it is pretty recent that the ratios have been discussed. I am sure I exceed 600 calories of protein on the days I eat beef, but that is only once in a while. I have no problem keeping my carbs down and am happy to add some sort of fat to each meal. Being older and sedentary, I am a slow loser, so I am happy with a couple of pounds a month. Hoping this new ( to me ) info will keep my scale going in the right direction. Thank you!
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by ebeads View Post
I was just snooping around and so happy to find this thread. You are all a wealth of knowledge. So much of this is new to me. I have been on and off LC for decades, but I guess it is pretty recent that the ratios have been discussed. I am sure I exceed 600 calories of protein on the days I eat beef, but that is only once in a while. I have no problem keeping my carbs down and am happy to add some sort of fat to each meal. Being older and sedentary, I am a slow loser, so I am happy with a couple of pounds a month. Hoping this new ( to me ) info will keep my scale going in the right direction. Thank you!
Don't worry, once you start using the correct ratio's (for you -- everyone is different) it will come off faster. The high protein makes it a lot harder for people than it has to be IMO.


Up that fat with some more bacon, avocados, dark chicken meat, nuts, etc, and relax on the eggs, white foul, and lean cuts of red meat and you'll be fine.


There is hope mi amiga.
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