Alcohol Problems

[lisayak]

Yeah, I have to admit that was upsetting for me. I've posted it before, and I'll post it again: I have never experienced loneliness like I did when I realised I was in serious trouble with alcohol and had no one or nowhere to go to speak about my problems. I feel so strongly about this thread as a forum for exploring problem drinking - even if all someone can do is post that they are having trouble with their drinking, getting feedback from others here lets them know they are not alone, and that eases the loneliness. This thread is for people who want to talk about their drinking in a place that is psychologically safe. Attacks against people are unacceptable.

Well, it's coming up to my bedtime here in Wales - got an early start tomorrow, touring the hospitals which make up my circuit during my practical placements. I have to say I've been overwhelmed this week - having a real crisis of confidence. I'm trying to only think about what I have to do today, but as usual, this is easier said than done!

At least I got a meeting in today, despite crying for at least half of it...I went for a coffee with a member after and walked home with him only to be caught in a ten minute hailstorm - we were absolutely pelted! Made a change...

Night all!

[peanutte]

Night, Lisa!

[Doggygirl]

Thank you everyone who has contributed words of wisdom, experience, advice, etc. since this thread began 400+ posts ago. I haven't visited LCF or any other LC site for way too long. I am thankful I found this thread much earlier today (or it found me - I do believe in destiny at times!). I started reading from post #1 sometime this morning, and just finished up. I will be back.

I have 3 major addictions:

1) Nicotine. I gave that one up 31 days ago. It's been rough, but here I am nicotine free. I can't believe it.

2) Alcohol. I need to tackle this one next. Interesting for me anyway - giving up addiction #1 seems to put more emphasis on #2. I will take some time to plan (but not make *time to plan* an excuse to ignore) #2.

3) Carby food. And I'm not into sweets. I'm the pizza/chips/bread/pasta type. I've visited my ideal weight eating LC - that's what works for me. I fell off that wagon after back surgery in fall 2002, and have been an LC mess ever since. I LOVED my life when I was comfortable in my own skin. I want that feeling again.

I hope to come back. The posts around the "4-teens" were a little strange - some long ago stuff that as a newcomer, I can only say....HUH????

Thanks Peanutte for getting the thread back on track. That meant a lot to me after spending 6+ hours reading and taking this whole thing VERY seriously.

Off for a much needed shower, and a good night sleep. My day has been nicotine free, but I have not yet started my alcohol free days. But I need to, and I think I will with a little help from my friends here. And if anyone needs help with the Nicodemon, let me know. After 30+ years, letting that one go required lots from within myself, but also lots of help from others as well.

I hope I will be welcome here..

DG
Day 31 Nicotine free
Day 1 LC (return)
Still boozin' (sadly)

[peanutte]

A big huge WELCOME to you, Doggygirl!

I am so impressed that you read the entire thread before posting, Wow, that's crazy! I appreciate the time and effort you took.

Don't worry about the stuff that didn't make sense to you in the 4-teens...it didn't make sense to any of us either!

CONGRATULATIONS on being free of cigarettes! I know how huge that is. I quit for three years once and I could kick myself for going back to it.

I'm looking forward to getting to know you more. Thanks for joining us here.

[Doggygirl]

Originally Posted by peanutte

A big huge WELCOME to you, Doggygirl!

I am so impressed that you read the entire thread before posting, Wow, that's crazy! I appreciate the time and effort you took.

Don't worry about the stuff that didn't make sense to you in the 4-teens...it didn't make sense to any of us either!

CONGRATULATIONS on being free of cigarettes! I know how huge that is. I quit for three years once and I could kick myself for going back to it.

I'm looking forward to getting to know you more. Thanks for joining us here.

Thank you for the welcome Peanutte! Oops - I guess I already revealed that I'm ...CRAZY!! The Nicotine thing really is huge for me. After being an addict for 30+ years, and defending my legal right to smoke (which it IS still legal), and jeapordizing relationships, jobs, etc. over defending Nicodemon.... Whew. I'm putting Nicodemon behind me for good this time. My last "serious attempt at trying to quit" was about 15 years ago. I muscled through it cold turkey. Got through the frickin' hardest times. Then *thought* I could suddenly be an occassionaly *one or two cigs at Friday happy hour* smoker. Geez. RIGHT back to square one I went. And sadly, you have to suffer the physical withdrawl and also the other brain crap ALL over again.

Anyway, I'm just glad to be here. I want to keep my NicoQuit, and get back to decent low carb eating. And I've spent a few (very few LOL) minutes on the treadmill the last couple of days. I truly believe I will need to totally stop drinking too. But I'm going to give myself a bit of time to adjust to the no nicotine, and very low carb thing.

OK - enough rambling. I'm off to watch a bad to worse movie!!

DG

[peanutte]

It sounds like you are comfortable with making baby steps, which in my opinions is very healthy. So many of us have an all or nothing mentality. I, too, would like to start doing even as little as fifteen minutes on my elliptical.

My honey came home from his Weight Watchers meeting a little depressed because he was up a few pounds. I hugged him and told him I love him and I love our sex life and it's okay to have a week where you go up a little. He looked so sad and said he was sorry he hasn't lost more weight. Um, 117 pounds is nothing to sneeze at! I told him I was sorry I hadn't quit drinking, myself, but added that I am so happy to be with him and in such a supportive relationship.

We all have our demons. I want to lose between 20 and 50 pounds, myself, and I just don't feel like it's ever gonna happen until I quit drinking.

[lisayak]

The "14s" were definitely an abberation!

Welcome Doggygirl. I have no knowledge of your drinking BUT my experience tells me that whenever I put one addictive substance/behaviour/relationship down, another is always more than willing to take its place!

That's the nature of my illness: mental obsession coupled with fear. I am so riddled with it that I now have no other option in my life other than to face them head on and refuse to indulge the illness. I've always seemed to be on the extreme fringe of any social group, and my madness is well documented!

But there's lots of people here who don't seem to have experienced anything like the severity that I have. I think it's great that we have experience on this thread ranging from total abstinence to moderation to consideration and exploration of whether they have a problem or not.

And I meant to say hello to CrazyDiamond but got a little distracted. Welcome, and just to say that I understand your fears of "I can't go to AA, what about my position in the community/someone recognises me". Truth is, everyone in that room is there because they're wrestling with the same problem you are...and they expect anonymity for themselves as well. Obviously there are no guarantees but please don't, if things get bad, overlook an important source of support and recovery simply because you're afraid of what people might think...they'd think you were looking for help with an illness which isn't your fault, and they'd respect you for doing so. I hate to think of people suffering needlessly.

As for me, my first week in university is over...and thank god I have a two week Easter break to recover! Lots of stress, lots of fear. I need to take some time to organise a few areas in my life to prepare for the seven weeks after the break.

Speak soon-

[Doggygirl]

Originally Posted by peanutte

It sounds like you are comfortable with making baby steps, which in my opinions is very healthy. So many of us have an all or nothing mentality. I, too, would like to start doing even as little as fifteen minutes on my elliptical.

OH Peanutte. You give me way too much credit in the all or nothing department.

1) Booze: I want it all.
2) Low carb food: I want all of that, and the high carb food too.
3) Exercise: None is fine by me.

Reading a lot in the last 24 hours in this section of LCF has been very enlightening. I'm learning a lot about myself and my various addictions and habits that I have ignored for years. (hint: I was anorexic when I was 15/16 years old. My brain may not be the healthiest when it comes to food and eating.)

Anyway, I'm really glad I found you guys, and also THANKS to Lisayak for the welcome. I've got issues I need to sort out. Quitting smoking is just the beginning I think.

I am also concerned about getting involved in any community support groups here locally. My husband and I have our own business, and it would be ...well...VERY embarrassing for me to admit my problems - even under supposed anonymity. Many of our clients (we do computer support work) are the very not-for-profit agencies in our area providing these services. I couldn't even walk through a front door without being recognized. No anonymity here.

I'm hoping for on-line support. I'm so grateful for the on-line support I've found to divorce NicoDemon. I'm hoping to find similar support (and I LOVE it here so far!) to get my eating back under control (meaning eat low carb, period). And my drinking under control. Food thing first.

Thanks you guys!!

DG

[peanutte]

Doggygirl, I have eating disorders in my past too, which is why I post on Beyond the Binge in this same area of the forums. It's not even that I "binge", but I've gained a lot of weight between drinking wine and learning to eat properly. It's a nice group of posters over there and I have to say, half the time I don't know if any of us know what we're trying to do--we're just trying to eat in a way that seems remotely normal and healthy!

[seejay]

Oh you guys, I hate to be singing a one-note song, but all those addictions have a single biochemical source. If you fix the biochemistry they will all quiet down and you don't have to worry about chasing each one at a time or endlessly going from one to the other.

If you believe in DesMaisons' theory anyway which I do, having experienced the reality of quieting them all.

I too have a history of ED, drinking, cigarettes. One time at a DesMaisons seminar we came up with 20 addictions that someone in the group had had at one time or another. !

I posted " the addiction amoeba" once here on LCF and that's a fun intro to the concept.

Oh and DG - that whole anonymous thing is EXACTLY why AA operates as it does. it's been true of small towns forever that you would see each other in meetings. And, even in larger towns, the drinking community is its own little world and you might see others. But the safety of the rooms is defended VERY fiercely.

I was once in a meeting with two people sort of from my church, and to this day no one knows the 3 of us were there. Including spouses.

[peanutte]

I wonder why her work hasn't been more widely implemented? Do you know, seejay?

Dammit, I should finish the rest of Potatoes Not Prozac the afternoon.

[Doggygirl]

Hi Again Peanutte and Seejay.

Seejay, thanks for the Radiant Recovery reminder. As I was reading this WHOLE thread from the start here yesterday, I made several notes along the way, and that suggestion (the book, etc.) were among them.

I think I'm going to order a couple of her books. I wasn't crazy about the layout of the web site and forums, nor am I a personal fan of Yahoo groups - the vehicle for the on-line seminars. Please let me know if you think the value in either of those offerings is worth the (IMO) pain in the butt formats they are being offered in. (but of course that's just a first impression of the on-line offering - nothing to do with the concept and the books!!)

The concept really made me think. Back in 2002 when I got totally into my LC groove I cut way back on the drinking and it wasn't tough at all, best I can recall. I limited my drinking to 2 or 3 times a week, a couple drinks max. I was eating 3 meals a day plus appropriate small snacks. (I'm a big notorious meal skipper - and that's currently my MO). Of course I was also very happy losing weight and feeling good - I'm sure being happy in my skin, just in general didn't hurt. But I never really connected the dots - maybe feeding my body more steadily (and of course sugar and all high carby foods were out of the picture) might have been a big part of that - which went unnoticed. This info also got me to thinking that even now, I am more likely to drink more when I haven't eaten in awhile. As an example, once a proper dinner is on the table, one or maybe two glasses of wine is it - and really no interest in drinking after dinner. It's a different story when I skip meals until I'm ravenous and crazy - and often intoxicated to go with it.

This is really a great thread. Lots of food for thought!!

DG

[peanutte]

Thanks to whomever is responsible for deleting the off-track posts! Appreciate that.

[lisayak]

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

I am also concerned about getting involved in any community support groups here locally. My husband and I have our own business, and it would be ...well...VERY embarrassing for me to admit my problems - even under supposed anonymity. Many of our clients (we do computer support work) are the very not-for-profit agencies in our area providing these services. I couldn't even walk through a front door without being recognized. No anonymity here. DG

I suppose for people who haven't yet had the complete physical and spiritual breakdown associated with an alcoholic rock bottom embarrassment is a consideration. But I sure well wouldn't want to have to go that far down before I was able to open myself to the idea of asking for help...'cause I've seen what it looks like and it ain't pretty.

And what Seejay said is true - people are only at AA meetings because they are alcoholics - and therefore in exactly the same boat as any newcomer who walks through the door. Alcoholics know all too well how difficult it is to walk in that door - that's why anonymity is fiercely protected, as Seejay says. Anonymity isn't that you will walk into a room and no one will recognise you, it's that no one in that room will ever reveal who else was there or what was discussed. Also, all people involved in the running of AA on all levels are alcoholics. The majority of staff at the World Service Office are alcoholics too.

That said, I have no idea if you are an alcoholic or not, and AA is for alcoholics - those alcoholics who want to get well, not those who need to get well. But IMO, it is the best resource available to any person who wants to stop drinking and finds they cannot do so alone. Many people feel the 12 step program of AA is outdated and that there are other ways to manage alcoholism, but there is a reason why the vast majority of reputable treatment centers use it as their model, and it's because it is one of the few methods that works if you want sobriety enough to work for it. Not to be cynical, but if the centers could come up with something better, they would charge for it.

I know I was scared of being recognised when I went to my first AA meeting - and I was - and the person who recognised me was excited for me, because they knew how wonderful sobriety was, and what a positive future I had ahead of me if I got sober.

It's not up to me to decide if AA is right for anyone else, just wanted to clear up the issue surrounding anonymity.

[peanutte]

See, I feel comfortable with the group in terms of not giving a crap (in other words, not being judgemental or embarassed) what anybody's story is, because obviously we wouldn't be there if we didn't have a good reason. However, I don't know if in the UK they do a lot of court-ordering of people to attend AA. It's very common in the US for people to be ordered to attend regularly and have someone sign a card to show they were there. If you are unfortunate enough to be with people who not only don't want to be there but actively resent it, that isn't a very secure feeling.

My feeling on anonymity is is MUST be taken seriously. In fact, I was irritated when some AA movie came out back in the day--Micheal Keaton in "Clean and Sober"--because I was attending AA at the time and felt that the public didn't need to know what went on in meetings. Now, of course, I see it differently--that movie and others like "28 Days" and "When a Man Loves A Woman" probably make AA seem less scary and people might identify with those characters and seek help.

[lisayak]

Seejay, save my lazy a** from having to search this thread - is the book you're recommending about biochemically treating addiction DesMaisons' Radiant Recovery?

I'm open to it - anything to make life easier. I find that with each addictive substance/behaviour/relationship I put down I go through a period of intense emotional pain. I need to experience the pain to be able to let it go, and then that substance/behaviour/relationship stops being a problem. For instance, the thought of a drink or a drug just doesn't enter my mind anymore. Since I've stopped grazing and started eating three meals a day, food and my weight have died down - avoiding sugar and white flour, white rice and processed foods helps tremendously.

Know what the worst withdrawal was (keep in mind never physically addicted to alcohol)? Caffeine. That one was a monster.

Thank you in advance - anything to support recovery is of interest.

[peanutte]

Oh my God, caffeine withdrawal headaches are the tortures of the damned.

[lisayak]

I can definitely see your point, Peanutte, and this is another time where because most of my AA experiences are in the UK I'm out of touch with what's going on in American AA. People being sentenced to AA is unheard of here. I think (purely my opinion) most UK AA people would feel that sentencing people to AA would be a traditions violation (Tradition 3: The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking) - people who don't have a desire to stop drinking shouldn't be in AA. People cannot be forced to recover.

I'm glad those posts are gone as well.

[peanutte]

Lisa, it's extremely common. It's pretty much a given that if you get a DUI, you will be asked to get a chemical evaluation from a professional, and you know there is no way to answer those questions honestly and not be classified as an alcoholic. I had one done after my one and only DUI, and answered honestly, and squeaked by with a "alcohol abuse not otherwise specified" rather than a "alcohol dependence". Most people just flat-out lie, though. The counselor had the power and authority to "prescribe" my regular attendance at AA meetings, and he recommended once a month for me (???) but my probation officer overruled him because she was impressed that I was already attending a weekly Chemical Health meeting on my own--very rare for DUI offenders.

Legislation about DUIs in the states is very misguided. I mean, I don't know what the answer is, but it would be better to focus on preventative measures like the threat of permanant loss of your license rather than punative measures that are NOT working. Keep in mind I did 48 hours of jail time for my first and only offense, and that was NOT what the judge wanted to give me--she wanted at least a week in prison and in fact, I had a sentence of 363 days hanging over my head until my probation was finished a few months ago. Which meant that had I been arrested for any type of alcohol related offense, I'd be in jail for a year, no questions asked.

I agree that people cannot be forced to recover if they don't want to. My DUI scared the crap out of me, but you would not believe how many repeat offenders still go driving around with no license and no registration. I can't understand how they do that.

[lisayak]

ITA. And on the subject of DUIs, it was only dumb luck & random numbers that I never got caught. One of the first clues I had to the extent of the moral vacuum I lived in during my active alcoholism is that I drank and drove all the time...and thought it was normal. Justified it with an easy "well, I'm not THAT drunk" and away I went. Absolutely shocking and disgusting behaviour and I would have thought anyone who didn't drink and drive was a bit of a killjoy.

Sad. Alcohol frightens me - I never want to go back to being that person again.

[peanutte]

There's a statistic about how many times one has likely driven drunk vs. getting caught. I think it's like twenty to one or something. Gah, it's horrible, I don't want to think about it. I've moved on, but I am still very repentant about that. I haven't driven since.

[lisayak]

I'm thankful I didn't kill anyone - I know people who did. I once came out of blackout driving my car. Not even that was enough to shock me into the idea that I needed to stop drinking and driving - I chose to focus on the lesson that I needed to stop drinking, driving and smoking dope simultaneously. Instead I kept my driving to times I was only using one chemical. Pure alcoholic insanity! Whenever I question whether my thinking is a bit off or not I think of times like those...and there were plenty.

[seejay]

Originally Posted by peanutte

I wonder why her work hasn't been more widely implemented? Do you know, seejay?

A number of factors, I would guess.

I do know that the original California county that funded her research, where she showed a 94% sobriety rate for one year, shut down that treatment option because the existing alcohol counselors thought it was simultaneously "too hard" and would put them out of jobs. (The industry treatment rate is 20% sobriety). Because a counselor would have to do what Dr. kathleen did, basically say to the people, do the food or else, and the counselors thought they couldn't ask the people to do something the counselors wouldn't do themselves (no sweets and whites).

Also, it's based on attraction not promotion, so only people who want to change, stick with it.

Also, it is hard and not an overnight fix or a pill. Adults take 4-9 months to do her "7 steps".

And she is deliberately staying "under the radar" of much media exposure because the whole thing is threatening to so many personal and commercial interests.

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

I wasn't crazy about the layout of the web site and forums, nor am I a personal fan of Yahoo groups - the vehicle for the on-line seminars.

The concept really made me think. ... I was eating 3 meals a day plus appropriate small snacks. ...I am more likely to drink more when I haven't eaten in awhile.

Exactly on the regular food. Skipping meals intensifies the hit of psychoactive food. And drink.

The yahoo lists and the web site are what they are, and the main way to get the good info. Occasionally people will push for different (faster, better, more modern) tools but Dr. K is convinced that these are the best for the most of her target audience. We can talk concepts here though.

Originally Posted by lisayk

I'm open to it - anything to make life easier. I find that with each addictive substance/behaviour/relationship I put down I go through a period of intense emotional pain.

Yes, Radiant Recovery. You might be interested in the connection between beta-endorphin, withdrawal, and physical and emotional pain. The whole thing about addicts having a different level of BE, thus many more receptors to catch the little we have, explains much about how we get a bigger hit from substances than other people, and suffer withdrawal stronger when the receptors empty out again after the hit.

I think it's kind of cool really. We have mutable brains!! Our brains actually change in response to what we eat and do. And they can change back again too.

Originally Posted by Peanutte

My DUI scared the crap out of me, but you would not believe how many repeat offenders still go driving around with no license and no registration. I can't understand how they do that.

Alas, I can. magical thinking, optimism, denial, and not wanting to change yet.

[lisayak]

Thanks Seejay! I'l search for it over here. I'm reading a book on brain biochemistry called Why Love Matters at the moment - I definitely believe it can be changed. Your suggestion sounds fascinating.