PSMF! Anyone?

[3Diva]

Hey, I thought there used to be a fairly active group who did the PMSF (Protein Sparing Modified Fast)

Anyway, I have started doing one and would love to talk to others who are doing it, too!

I am basing it mostly on Lyle McDonald's Rapid Fat Loss guidelines, but my calories are going to be around 1000, not 400-800.

Protein 100-125 gm
Carbs 10 -15 (not NET)
Fat fills in the rest.

TW, my name is Suzan, I'm 34, started at 170.8 for this go round and I'm down 5 pounds already.

I'm doing a mix of shakes and 1 reg low carb meal and i mini meal.

[Windycitygal38]

Hi
I have been doing a PSMF for 11 days now and I am feeling great. I have 35 pounds to lose and nothing else was working for me.

I typically eat around 1000-1200 cals a day. I plan on adding free meals or refeeds in about a month. I eat lean proteins and veggies and eggs and cottage cheese.

I work out 3-4 x a day, pretty intense cardio for an hour. My workouts have gotton harder so I am slowing down a bit.

[3Diva]

I have about 35 pounds to lose, too (I think)...

I lost a 42 pounds last summer in 10 or 11 weeks with a modified form of Kimkins and kept all but 10 of it off doing my own low carb maintaining (with some screwups over the holidays).

Anyway, I've been dieting FOR SO MANY YEARS that I am just fed up. I want to get to goal and I want it to be this year, this summer before I turn 35.

I've had enough!

I started the "cheat to lose" diet because I wanted something that addressed metabolic slowdown and leptin levels/refeeds, but I think his plan was too sketchy and vague for me. (Once I read more Lyle McDonald's plan and saw him address leptin level and refeeds, I knew I was on the right track.)

Anyway, did "Cheat to Lose" for a week in late March and realized it wasn't working for me right off the bat.

Then, I did a week a high fat no carb Atkins 72 to get my hunger under control and get over my cheat day and then switched into easing into PMSF.

Anyway, since I've switched over and dialed down my calories I'm down 7 pounds! Woo hoo!

So far, so good. More later

[LeoKat]

I've never been gutsy enough to try this mothod out. 3 diva: have you done this before and you don't feel that it screwed up your muscle ratio? And if you don't mind me asking, what was your form of modified kimkins? There are so many opinons on the board about low cal diets and such! I my self have not had a problem.

There was a time when I used to cruise Lyles forum too. Maybe I can check it out again..
Thanks!

[3Diva]

LeoKat: Dangerous questions! LOL

Kimkins is dangerous territory around here (as well it is should be!). Kimkins was a low calorie diet, but it was a low calorie diet without a brain! There was also a sociopathic cult leader personality and a lot of well-meaning, but ill-informed helpers that created a vaguely anorexic mentality on the chat boards.

The people who did Kimkins and didn't suffer ill-effects tended to be those who were experienced low carbers who brought additional background knowledge to the table and also liberally tweaked the diet. (Like me)

As for me, I'm a science nerd/medical research junkie. However, I had gotten lazy and never really researched low calorie and very low calorie diets and the ways they should and shouldn't be done. After my Kimkins experience, I decided to spend some time maintaining and giving myself a psychological and physiological break from dieting. I also wanted to make sure I could find a plan that was healthy and really understand what I was doing.

The research shows that low calorie dieting does NOT destroy your metabolism if you do it correctly! Many low cal, low fatters barely eat enough protein to sustain themselves and their body eats their muscles to thank them. When you diet, you need even more protein to protect your muscle. Plus resistance training will also help you preserve the muscle you have and possibly even gain a little.

Supplements are also important, specifically the electrolytes (sodium, potassium, magnesium) Calcium, too, depending on whether or not you are using dairy.

The other issue is that you have to be very focused, keep track of your food, do targeted refeeds, be in touch with your body and your eating behaviors and know how to carefully come off of the diet as well.

Obviously, if you are someone who's had eating disorder issues or feels you might be prone to such, it might not be a good idea, either.

And of course, you should check with your doctor for underlying medical concerns, get a baseline physical/blood tests to make sure you're in good enough shape.

Thirdly, it's not meant to do "forever" or even for very extended periods.

Free meals, refeeds, and diet breaks are all scheduled in, more frequent the less you have to lose to avoid lowering metabolism, leptin levels (which regulate bodyfat storage and thyroid functioning to a degree), etc...

This is a quick and dirty post, but hopefully it helps a little. If you want to do more research on your own, which you should, check out Lyle McDonald's forums (a little too much testosterone, but good info).

There is also a thread here under other plans that uses some of the Lyle McDonald concepts (more the refeeds/free meals/weight training than the PSMF, though)

[3Diva]

Originally Posted by LeoKat

I've never been gutsy enough to try this mothod out. 3 diva: have you done this before and you don't feel that it screwed up your muscle ratio? And if you don't mind me asking, what was your form of modified kimkins? There are so many opinons on the board about low cal diets and such! I my self have not had a problem.

There was a time when I used to cruise Lyles forum too. Maybe I can check it out again..
Thanks!

Sorry, I got so wrapped up in typing that long-winded reply, I forgot to answer your question.

No, my stint on Kimkins (my way) did not screw up my lean body mass. Although I did have some low cal days, I always kept my protein high. My worst days were in the 90 gram range, but often 100-110.

I also did a lot of supplements.

However, the mistake I made was not cycling every so often. I was losing so quickly I thought I could just hang on a bit longer and be done. Once I started not feeling great (no serious symptoms, just kind of weak) I realized I needed a break, period. I did it for about 11 weeks and -42 pounds.

And yes, my skin was kind of saggy (it's caught up now) and my hair was getting a little dull, and my skin was getting dry.

However, I was not doing free meals, refeeds or diet breaks....

But, I went off Kimkins, let myself "eat anything" for a day and then just basically bounced around doing moderate low carb. Some of my weight re-gain was water since I went from nearly 0 carb to maitainence levels (40-80 grams) and some was being a little stupid over the holidays.

For the most part, however, I was fine. I took a period of adjustment to re-stretch the stomach, etc, but I must say I was up to the task.

Seriously, I didn't even count calories from October through March (?) I often gave myself a day off entirely once every 2 weeks. I haven't been eating low-fat weird foods and my only food hangup remains the one I've had since birth, the inability to resist NY style pizza.

My body percentages seem to include a few pounds of fat regain, but my lean body mass appears to be the same.

I will say this. I have been trying to be a "sensible low carb dieter" for a VERRRRRRY long time. I might lose 10-15 and then would just get stuck (and I mean STUCK, not stalled, no inches, no nothing) for 6 months or longer.

If could eat a sensible 1700 plus exercise, or 1500 or 1200 and lose weight at slow by somewhat steady pace, I would have been at goal about 7 years ago!

I can maintain at a wide range of calorie and carb levels, but to actually lose FAT, I seem to need to do something drastic. And I don't seem to be alone.

BTW, I'm just shy of 5'7", weigh 165, and am wearing a snug size 10, so that help you judge my body composition. I'm also a 36DD, so I'm a bit top-heavy.

Hope this helps.

[LeoKat]

Thanks for your comprehensive response!

I feel a bit the same way. I have maintained at the weight that I am at for the last few years. The only time it has gone down was:

a: during a fast a year ago
b: during LFL (which is about 1100k and 90min of exercise a day for me)

I am only 5ft tall btw. But even at my weight I am still a comfortable size 4. Well to be honest, I was uncomfortable in my clothing but recently took Callanetics back up, and now everything fits well even though my weight has gone up 2lbs. I have 5 hours down so far. I would LOVE to be a size 2 or 0!

There have been times that I maintained a 2 and that is usually about 118lbs. With the power of Callanetics behind me, that number may be higher now. I don't know, but I am still shooting for 115lb.

I see that you are also doing Callan. I freaking love her.

So what does your exercise look like? Especially with PSMF? Would 1hour be consdered = 30min weight lifting session Lyle recommends? I am doing Callan every other day, and I also attend Jazzercise 6-7days a week because I love it so much. I wonder how much I will be able to do.

How long do you plan on going with PSMF?

Huge congrats to you for your success so far. And the fact that you have been able to MAINTAIN. That is so wonderful! I don't even know you but I am proud of you anyway!

[g2g]

Hi,

I was wondering if you could give me an example of your meals,
also, did you buy the book? I noticed on the websie for Lyle McDonald he has the new version of the Rapid Fat loss Handbook.

Thank you
Pam

[3Diva]

Originally Posted by LeoKat

Thanks for your comprehensive response!

[snip]

There have been times that I maintained a 2 and that is usually about 118lbs. With the power of Callanetics behind me, that number may be higher now. I don't know, but I am still shooting for 115lb.

I see that you are also doing Callan. I freaking love her.

I love Callan, too! I hear her voice echoing in my head "vertebra by vertebra"... Callanetics is really amazing. I'm inspired by the changes I see it can produce in even pretty fit people PLUS I like the pacing between hard work and relaxation and stretching. I feel stronger and more relaxed everything I do the workout.

Originally Posted by LeoKat

So what does your exercise look like? Especially with PSMF? Would 1hour be consdered = 30min weight lifting session Lyle recommends? I am doing Callan every other day, and I also attend Jazzercise 6-7days a week because I love it so much. I wonder how much I will be able to do.

Well, I'm committed to doing Callanetics Mon and Fri (when my girls are in preschool -- I have one 21 months and one just turned 4!). I also walk Olivia to school at least once a week (it's about 40-45 minutes one way, so it's a good low intensity fat burning session in my mind).

I'm reluctant to commit myself to more than that. I think it would be overkill or me. I'm the type of person who will get sick when I try to go too hung-go on exercise. Seriously, it's really annoying. Everytime I'd start Body for Life within 2 weeks, I'd be ill. Every spinning class or "Navy Seal Fitness"...within 2 weeks, same weirdness. If I stick to lower-intensity pursuits like Callanetics and loooonnng walks, I seem to stay healthy. Lame, but true.

Then again, I seem to build muscle and strength pretty well for a female, so I'll take it!

Originally Posted by LeoKat

How long do you plan on going with PSMF?

Well, I want to make it to goal, but I don't want to be stupid either. My rough plan is to stay on thru the end of May and then evaluate how well I'm doing. I need to recheck what happens if you switch categories in the middle of one of your dieting cycles, as I would hope to be category 2 before or by then!

I'll do a diet break and then re-assess what's next based on my success and how well I"m doing psychologically with strict dieting.

Originally Posted by LeoKat

Huge congrats to you for your success so far. And the fact that you have been able to MAINTAIN. That is so wonderful! I don't even know you but I am proud of you anyway!

Thank you so much! I have been working hard for a long time (as I know countless others have too!) and it's nice to feel like I'm finally not going in circles. Something actually worked! Don't let me kid you though, low cal low carb is tough. Some days are easy and you don't think much about food, but there are days I've had to white knuckle it, too!

However, it is very worth to me. Losing those 42 pounds has changed my whole life. My knees no longer ache like crazy, I have tons more energy to play with my kids (I went roller skating with my 4 year old...), more confidence, easier time finding clothes... my bra size dropped from 44F (ack!)

I can't wait to lose at least another 20 pounds of fat. I was really afraid of low calories for the longest time, but I'm glad I took a chance and I'm even more glad there are smart people writing books and doing research on it.

BTW, one of the things I'm doing with my higher cals this time is including 2T of coconut oil and a CLA/GLA combo.

I may order casein protein, too, for my shakes, since it is supposedly superior for it's anti-catabolic properties as well as keeping you feeling fuller longer.

What I did to make it easier to adjust is to taper down. Do full fat Atkins for a week, then go super low on carbs for a few days and start dialing down your calories and fat with leaner protein choices / smaller portions. THis is a lot less painful than jumping in cold turkey.

Chicken broth, Hot tea and liquid splenda are your friends, too.

Sorry, I'm writing a book. I'll check the thread again later.

Take care and let me know how you're doing!

[LeoKat]

Good morning to you! Sorry to post so much later. 530pm is Jazzercise time and then a friend and I went out to the bluffs to walk our dogs. It was soo beautiful! Where are you btw? I am in Carpinteria, a small beach town in Santa Barbara county.

Are you following the Callan thread in the exercise forum? There are soo many good tips there now. I am stoked that there are two teachers in there posting. It has taken my workout to another level for sure. I have finally hit that place where I really feel like I am working deeply - you know what I mean? Yesterday was not my Callan day, but I did watch the first part of Supercallan. She goes through all the positions and talks about form. I just practiced my new ability to get deeper into the positions. Gosh I can talk about Callan all day!

So I am going to do some PSMF shopping on Friday. I'll be geared up and ready to go over the weekend then.

Do tell me about your coconut oil on high days idea? You've brought all the big boys out for your last hurrah! It was my understanding that the high days/meals are low fat as they are refeads. Whats your typical menu going to look like? Mine will be something like this:

1) grilled lemon chix breast/fat free cheese/spinach

2) choc mint protein shake (this is whey and spinach or kale and ice blended. You cant taste the greens b/c of the chocmint whey. It does turn green though!)

3) lowfat cottage cheese blended smooth with stevia and pumpkin pie spice.

4) choc mint protein shake.

5) xtra lean ground turkey made with taco seasoning. wrapped up in purple cabbage leaves with salsa.

On refead days the last meal would be low fat stir fried rice or "candy" butterbut squash and steamed veggies. If I remember correctly I refead every five days for my catagory? I read the original book about three years ago (someone I knew had it). How often are you having high days?

Further thoughts on your ability to maintain:
It is great that you are grateful for your journey. The maintaining part has always been an issue for me. I could always find a reason to eat crap food again. Usually emotionally based. In the last year I have com pretty far with figuring out the reasons why I eat. For me what is working is to make sure that I have things to do. There was a part of me that was to afraid to try anything new/ follow my dreams and so instead would glue me to the chair with a cookie. Also, most of my friends are bored eaters too. So I am not hanging out with them that much anymore. Now I knit and collage.

I like your no-nonsense style, 3diva! You're a techie....I can tell...!

So off I go for morning coffee. I will check back this afternoon. Hope all is well with you.

PS. What are your top 5 fav books?

[3Diva]

Originally Posted by g2g

Hi,

I was wondering if you could give me an example of your meals,
also, did you buy the book? I noticed on the websie for Lyle McDonald he has the new version of the Rapid Fat loss Handbook.

Thank you
Pam

Well, my meals have been very different. I have a very busy 21 month old and a 4 year old, so I have to compromise what I can make.


Generally, I do
Breakfast: 1 or 2 eggs or lean deli meats, a dash of lc BBQ sauce and a pickle
LAte Midmorning: a coffee/coconut oil/protein shake midmorning
Late Lunch: Somedays mini-meal or some days BIG MEAL
Afternoon: Egg Drop Soup or Cup of Broth (depends on protein/calories)
Dinner: BIG MEAL or mini-meal

Meals: PIzza Chicken
Slice about 1.5 boneless, skinless breast into very thin strips (easiest when chicken is semi frozen, using shears), Use .5 T olive oil and pan fry about 1/4 cup diced onion, 1 medium bell pepper, 1/2 cup mushrooms, 1T -2T real bacon bits, and some garlic.

Season chicken with your fave italian spice mix and add to the pan, stir frying until lightly browned. Add 1/2 cup low cal / low carb pizza sauce (I use Kroger's Pizza Parlor Style 3gC per 1/4 cup).

Sprinkle 1/2 cup LF/FF mozzerella cheese, cover with lid and simmer on low until chicken softens and absorbs some sauce and cheese melts, sprinkle your serving with 1 tsp parmasean.

Sorry, I don't have macros for that, but I can dig it out of my files. I would say 6 servings for mini meals or 3/4 for a BIG MEAL...

Lots of Chicken Salad with a tad of lite mayo and mustard and onion salt and pepper and a dash of liquid splenda and lettuce wraps.

I'll think of more later.. Gotta run.

[g2g]

Thank you for the info... I might order the new book and try this too.

Pag

[LeoKat]

just wanted to say hi really quick! I'm off to work right now. Hope you are doing well today! I am so excited to start with you! Maybe I will take some pics to post here....

Talk to you later!

[3Diva]

Hey LeoKat, you have a gorgeous face, btw!

I hate those photos I redid my avatar with, but it serves as good reminder of what I've already accomplished and what's still left to be done!

My calories were closer to 900 yesterday for some reason, I missed some of my coconu oil.

Otherwise, I have a rotten headcold, but I'm on plan.

Breakfast: 1 serving turkey breast and roast beef, 1.5 tsp lc BBQ, 1 cup shredded cabbage and spritz of dressing

Late Morning: Protein shake w/VCO

Late Lunch: Something chickeny with some asparagus.

After: ???

I'm talking the small people to the roller rink, so that ought to be interesting. Tomorrow's my weigh/measure-in.

I'm trying to get my DH to do this for a month to lose his last 20, but so far he's stalling on joining in. I think he'd die without bacon. Maybe Lyle can design a bacon diet for him?

I'll post more later. I think someone is destroying something in the living room.

[3Diva]

I noticed that when I diet strictly and really get into deep ketosis, I lose my diet Coke addiction and that I really enjoy drinking water.

Most of the time I have to struggle against grabbing too many cans of Diet Coke and not downing enough H2O, but right now it seems really easy to drink water.

My body has grabbed onto some water the past day or so, so here's hoping for a whoosh tomorrow.

Also, I decided to rebuy Lyle's update Rapid Fat Loss handbook and according to his calculator, I'm only 34.5% body fat. My Taylor scale says I'm 33%, but other online calculators say higher (like 37%), so I'm not sure what to believe.

Anyone try the EC stacking?

[LeoKat]

Hey there

I just got home from a super long day.

Yes I have done a ECA stack many times. It has caused me to wake up in the middle of the night from heart attack dreams with my pulse racing. There was a time when I could handle it, but it does not seem that way anymore. I do have a couple cherished fat burner brands that I dip into when I feel the need, which is not very often.

I forgot that Lyle recommends that. Is it necessary according to him to get the results quickly?

My god that is all I can type I am so tired. I get off early tomorrow so I will have more time to type. And I get to go shopping!!!!! So I will be on board here with you by Sat morning. Yippee! I am soo ready. I tell you what - I REFUSE to spend another summer avoiding the beach! I am going to live this year! No more holding back! (This is where you vision me on the roof top with a red cape flowing behind me)


night night

[3Diva]

Ok, I started PMSF (after 2 weeks of low carb dieting) on 4/4

4/4 4/11
Wt 170.8 166

Band Size 37.125 36.5
(underarm)
Bust 40.75 40.5
Ribcage 34 33.625
(under bust)

NW 35.25 34.625
BB 39.825 40
Hips 43 42.625

Wrist (R) 6.5 6.5
Thigh (R) 24.75 24.5
(high)

About 2 of those pounds lost are water (4/3 was the last day of TOM), but most aren't as I was already strictly low-carbing. Notice most of the inch loss is in my upper torso, which is consistent with my experience of losing back fat first. Not too bad for a week. Gotta run and hit the callanetics!

[3Diva]

Originally Posted by LeoKat

Hey there

I just got home from a super long day.

Yes I have done a ECA stack many times. It has caused me to wake up in the middle of the night from heart attack dreams with my pulse racing. There was a time when I could handle it, but it does not seem that way anymore. I do have a couple cherished fat burner brands that I dip into when I feel the need, which is not very often.

I forgot that Lyle recommends that. Is it necessary according to him to get the results quickly?

My god that is all I can type I am so tired. I get off early tomorrow so I will have more time to type. And I get to go shopping!!!!! So I will be on board here with you by Sat morning. Yippee! I am soo ready. I tell you what - I REFUSE to spend another summer avoiding the beach! I am going to live this year! No more holding back! (This is where you vision me on the roof top with a red cape flowing behind me)


night night

Whoa, heart attack dreams with a pounding pulse? That sounds pretty freaking scary. Lyle does recommend (but not require it) to counteract metabolic slowdown, but says you should build up to a full dose and, of course, if you experience symptoms like you mention, taper off, or stop completely.

I'm on the fence about trying it. My attitude is to wait and see how things go.

I did post about CLA/GLA on his forum and he thought CLA worked but wasn't worth it "for the investment" "just do some cardio", he said. Given that I would rather eat rat poison than do extra cardio, I'm going to keep taking it. LOL.

You've got a great attitude going in. Sometimes you just know deep down inside, it *really*is different this time. I am ready and I am willing to do whatever it takes. Have fun shopping. TTYL.

[sallywarren]

Hello all....it's been a few weeks since I've been on one of these boards....got a little busy I guess. I was also on the thread...for the love of PSMF, which didn't seem to show a lot of activity. I'm glad to see that the activity on this thread seems to be high ) I have a question. I'm doing PSMF through my endocrinologist and dietition for insulin resistance. I've been doing it approximately 2 1/2 months and have lost about 25 of 40 pounds. I have yet to hear about this "refeeding" day. What is that? I'm going simply by what information I have been given from my endocrinologist, as I do not have the LYle book, but have been to the website. Here's the real question.....My birthday is in a little over a week and my very favorite thing in life is birthday cake with frosting ) I REALLY want to have it on my birthday, only comes once a year right, and am worried about this, as I will not have had sugar in almost 3 months. I really want to let go and take that day off to eat whatever i want and yes drink...and of course have birthday cake. I'm very disciplined and can get right back on the horse.....I'm just worried about the consequences...any suggestions???

Thanks and congrats on all your successes )))

[3Diva]

Originally Posted by sallywarren

Hello all....it's been a few weeks since I've been on one of these boards....got a little busy I guess. I was also on the thread...for the love of PSMF, which didn't seem to show a lot of activity. I'm glad to see that the activity on this thread seems to be high ) I have a question. I'm doing PSMF through my endocrinologist and dietition for insulin resistance. I've been doing it approximately 2 1/2 months and have lost about 25 of 40 pounds. I have yet to hear about this "refeeding" day. What is that?

<snip>

I'm just worried about the consequences...any suggestions???

Thanks and congrats on all your successes )))

Wow, congrats on 25 pounds in 2.5 months! I hope to join your success on this round.

Last time I did PSMF, it was totally seat of the pants. I was sort of following Kimkins....sort of.

This time, I wanted to do more research and make sure I was taking care of my body a little better. I read Thin So Fast by Dr. Eades (better known for Protein Power) and read the Rapid Fat Loss handbook by Lyle McDonald.

Lyle's reasoning is this: After extending low calorie dieting, your leptin levels and your metabolism drops. A controlled refeed (which is usually a 5 hour window where you consume something like 200-450gC, depending on bodyweight, trying to keep it lower fat), then the next day you're back on the wagon. Eating this massive amount of carbs, will of course raise both your calories and release a ton of insulin and skipping a lot of biochemistry, it should also raise your leptin levels and trick your body into revving up the metabolism for a while.)

How often you do this is based on your dieting category. Basically, if you have a lot of bodyfat (35% or more for a female...), you don't refeed. If you're category 2, you do it once a week. Category 1 are the very lean and I don't rememeber those rules, because I'm not close to that!

I'm actually right on the border between cat 2 and cat 3, and although Lyle said to pick the lower category, I'm still leery of refeeds, so I'm doing an 8 week cycle, then a diet break and then I'll try the category 2 plan.

Anyway, if you're under the care of an endocrinologist, and not knowing anything else about your health background, I wouldn't necessarily worry about Lyle's rules. I'm treating it as "something I'll consider" if my body stops responding to the diet.

As far as consequences go, I doubt you could gain more than an 1/8 of a pound of fat, even if you tried, however, you will knock yourself out of ketosis and you will put on a ton of water weight and you will die of shock when you step on the scale the next day (if you overdo it) and you will have to go through adjusting to the diet...etc..

Lyle has another idea called a "free meal" just to keep you sane. Basically you do your regular diet all day, but for dinner you have your protein and some veggies and don't worry about adding extra fat (real salad dressing) or having a side of starch, or even a dessert. The idea isn't to stuff 2.5 meals into one, but to endulge in a few extras to keep your sanity. That might be a better plan for your birthday. Just make sure you have your plan for getting back on track the next day!

Anyway, it sounds like you already have a pretty good handle on this way of dieting, so I'd love to hear more about what you're doing? Calories, gram of protein, shakes/meals, supplements?

Nice to meet you!

Suzan

[3Diva]

Hey LeoKat!

How did the shopping trip go?

Or are you too weak from lack of food to post?

LOL

Check in!

Suzan