Why the fascination with Kimmer? #16

Tom · 04-08-2008, 10:06 PM

tiggerr · 04-08-2008, 10:08 PM

#16, wow.

Thank you Tom for letting this go past the first post.

justme08 · 04-08-2008, 10:14 PM

Sad, I am new and wanted to be first! I will have to try harder.

SMP · 04-08-2008, 10:17 PM

Sam, I don't know whether to be offended or alarmed by your assessment of the group character of the ducks. If you read my posts, you'll see that I support the ducks, yet don't consider myself one. I occasionally point out a particularly blatantly mean-spirited post; voice my disagreement with the party line if it strikes me as being out in left field. I've also been guilty of rank speculation, which sometimes has also been out in left field, and am sometimes surprised when the ducks, who see Heidi under every overturned rock, correctly identify new contrary posters as Heidi Sockettes. (Relax, Sam, I never thought you were a Heidi persona - you use more big words than she does, and are a lot less mean in the long run.

) And I don't have the Magic Chicken Lady in my crosshairs!
Fortunately, Sam, this is merely ONE THREAD among the 1000's on the LCF forum, and the admins keep a good grip of the reins on the others. This is actually a time-limited (when Heidi gets the time) forum dedicated to the exposure of a poster who developed her following here. She is our Changeling Child, and we feel a certain amount of responsibility to control the damage she is doing. Once we have discharged that responsibility to the extent legally possible, our mission is done and this thread will be locked.
And the Ducks will fade into oblivion, just like those quarrelsome groups you described, but with an abiding sense of accomplishment.
Yay Ducks!

Brimstone · 04-08-2008, 10:17 PM

16 is my favourite number

MomToEli · 04-08-2008, 10:29 PM

Thank you, Tom!

Samredman posted this:

Quote:

Well, like my first post on this thread said... I was intrigued when I first saw a video on one of the tube sites about the Kimkins fiasco and so, I began doing some Google searches. The story became more fascinating when I discovered that behind a simple fraudulent sales promotion was a internet posting vendetta (now that's not necessarily a bad thing). If those conducting a vendetta are truly on the side of righteousness, I offer no condemnation. As Barry Goldwater said, "Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

But, it was the behind the scenes story of the campaign, being engineered by disgruntled internet forum posters, which struck a harmonic chord with me, because I have seen this phenomenon before (in many other forum situations) and I have studied the strange dynamics of similarly bizarre sequences of forum events for years. I have been posting on boards since the seventies (beginning on the Commodore 64, using Compuserve, which was like a forerunner to the internet and today's bulletin boards) and from way back then, I have ofttimes explored very similar forum situations, where strange and often unusually intense relationships form between people (who are actually geographically distant strangers to each other) anonymously hiding behind unique posting pseudonyms, but where behind the scenes plots and "take over," as well as, "take down" plans unfold and where loyalties are broken and revenge is sought. Hatred often builds to such very intense levels it sometimes has even resulted in assaults and even murder. I have participated in a few boards, where I saw it happening and where it increased to an insane, mad frenzy (years ago, the very first "big brother" tv show boards had fighting groups, which were something to behold... one fray resulted in a shooting between members of opposing boards). On smaller boards, the sociology of the fighting factions can be tracked, until you can often observe the "tipping point" at which a board has been entirely taken over by a group with special interests or bias or prejudice (much like these Kimmer threads), where no discussion or dissent is allowed unless a poster agrees with the majority (anyone else is shouted down). That's why people who are interested in real dialog, which actually explores a topic, will soon leave that kind of environment to find more fertile territory for their intellectual exercise. There are numerous examples of these board "coup 'd etats" taking place and most of them result in boards being closed or becoming merely ongoing chat threads (almost always characterized by frequent one or two line postings) with posters getting meaner and more spiteful about the groups' common enemies (it's always nice if there are warring boards).

I had spent some time over the past few years posting a bit on the Natalee Holloway case. I always like to take the "innocent until proven guilty" stance and argue against the "wild west, hang 'em high, neck-tie party" crowd, who believe in punishment for anyone merely accused of a crime. I first posted on ScaredMonkeys site, until it became one of those places dedicated to a single belief, where dissent wasn't permitted. I then started my own dot com info site called Scrux and had a discussion board there, which was open to any view... but, eventually I closed that board (even though at the time it had 1000 visitors a day), when it started showing those signs of "group takeover." I didn't want to fool with that drama. But through all of this, I have continued to puzzle over the dynamics of forums and why they all seem to go bad eventually. This is what was so interesting to me about the Kimkins scandal... isn't so much the fraud or the phony pictures and testimonials or even the lawsuit per se, but instead, how it was created through a forum (lowcarbfriends) by a prolific poster (19,000 of 'em) and then spun off as a commercial enterprise, which then used as its own kernel, a forum, finally experiencing its eventual internal come-apart, because of poor administration in how to deal with that same old thing, "those who didn't agree." Then, we have the offended ones banding together here on lowcarbfriends with their common bond of revenge and a kind of a prairie justice mentality which, as I read the threads, appeared to have a lot in common with the distorted logic of those "high 'em high" crowds, which I have seen many times before.

So, I was motivated to study the case, gathering all the facts I could from a neutral viewpoint and then evaluating all I found with an open mind to see if my analysis of it would bear any contrast to prevailing views. I really wasn't concerned whether what I discovered or reasoned would be a contrary position when I was done or if I would be marching in step with the crowd. I was only interested in my honest take on all I would consider about the circumstances of the situation. Therefore, my postings have primarily been done as an exercise to see, if, in spite of the resolute commonalty of a group's closed mindedness, whether they might be communicatively responsive to an new, fresh view from an outsider. What I have posted... has been the steps in that exploration.

Could all this curiosity result in a book someday on this peculiar phenomenon of the dynamics of internet forums? Maybe. I have certainly kicked around the book idea and I am collecting all my musings on the subject (covering about five of these board situations from a six year period)... just really as a hobby (I have other writing chores) and maybe someday it will be a book. I don't know....might just be too boring to publish.

(original link):

I am glad that I'm not as senile as I think I am at times and did indeed recognize you from elsewhere.

Are you also the Samuel who at one time was a poster at ALC? The writing style is more than similar.

Where on CompuServe did you hang out? Any chance you frequented the OJ Simpson Forum? How about the political fora on the old pre-CompuServe BBS system?

One factor that you might want to take into consideration as you evaluate the function and form of these particular threads is that this series of threads have never been pro-Kimmer/Heidi/Kimkins. They are not really intended to be a place to debate the merits of the diet. Rather they are a gathering spot for those committed to rooting out and assimilating various pieces of information for the benefit of both the civil and criminal actions against Heidi Diaz. This is also a place that facilitates the actions involved in attempting to prevent Heidi Diaz from continuing to perpetuate her fraudulent activities. That would explain why you don't find an open mindedness towards dissenting opinions. There is general agreement here that the facts are not in dispute. And, there is little tolerance for those who might be intent on turning this into such a debate. Other places are surely available for that.

So, you can see there hasn't been any sort of "take over" or "take down" here.

(Hopefully this makes sense the second time around ... first time got lost in the thread change over)

NancyElle · 04-08-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomToEli

(original link):

================================================== ===

I am glad that I'm not as senile as I think I am at times and did indeed recognize you from elsewhere.

Are you also the Samuel who at one time was a poster at ALC? The writing style is more than similar.

Where on CompuServe did you hang out? Any chance you frequented the OJ Simpson Forum? How about the political fora on the old pre-CompuServe BBS system?

One factor that you might want to take into consideration as you evaluate the function and form of these particular threads is that this series of threads have never been pro-Kimmer/Heidi/Kimkins. They are not really intended to be a place to debate the merits of the diet. Rather they are a gathering spot for those committed to rooting out and assimilating various pieces of information for the benefit of both the civil and criminal actions against Heidi Diaz. This is also a place that facilitates the actions involved in attempting to prevent Heidi Diaz from continuing to perpetuate her fraudulent activities. That would explain why you don't find an open mindedness towards dissenting opinions. There is general agreement here that the facts are not in dispute. And, there is little tolerance for those who might be intent on turning this into such a debate. Other places are surely available for that.

So, you can see there hasn't been any sort of "take over" or "take down" here.

(Hopefully this makes sense the second time around ... first time got lost in the thread change over)

I couldn't have said it better.

I'm still curious as to what Mr. Redman's "payoff" is. Clearly, alot of time and analysis has been given to this issue, by Mr. Redman. However, I still am asking, "why"?

This case regarding Heidi Diaz is certainly not frought with as much controversy, mystery and intrigue as that of Natalee Holloway and Aruba.....

Do you suppose Mr. Redman thinks the story is worthy of a book or mini series????

So much rhetoric, effort, thought, time, carefully structured debate and legal ramblings, must be posted for a reason........

I'm just asking.........

Pam in TX · 04-09-2008, 03:46 AM

#16 and still going strong...............

Mayberryfan · 04-09-2008, 04:20 AM

Sweet 16! It is sweet indeed! Thanks Tom, Cheri, et., al. for letting us continue this battle for justice. We may disagree at times, we may go off on little tangents, and we may have - as Barney Fife would say - interlopers who deserve to get the BIG FREEZE, but our purpose is pretty clear. That is to find enough evidence and supply it to the authorities so that Heidi has to face the music. We are all about doing thing in a legal, above-board manner.

Oh, and sometimes, we like to have a little fun too. Let's make it a great Wednesday ladies! We have much to proud of and to celebrate.

beachfires · 04-09-2008, 04:50 AM

From the Great Orator....

Well, like my first post on this thread said... I was intrigued when I first saw a video on one of the tube sites about the Kimkins fiasco and so, I began doing some Google searches. The story became more fascinating when I discovered that behind a simple fraudulent sales promotion was a internet posting vendetta (now that's not necessarily a bad thing). If those conducting a vendetta are truly on the side of righteousness, I offer no condemnation. As Barry Goldwater said, "Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

But, it was the behind the scenes story of the campaign, being engineered by disgruntled internet forum posters, which struck a harmonic chord with me, because I have seen this phenomenon before (in many other forum situations) and I have studied the strange dynamics of similarly bizarre sequences of forum events for years. I have been posting on boards since the seventies (beginning on the Commodore 64, using Compuserve, which was like a forerunner to the internet and today's bulletin boards) and from way back then, I have ofttimes explored very similar forum situations, where strange and often unusually intense relationships form between people (who are actually geographically distant strangers to each other) anonymously hiding behind unique posting pseudonyms, but where behind the scenes plots and "take over," as well as, "take down" plans unfold and where loyalties are broken and revenge is sought. Hatred often builds to such very intense levels it sometimes has even resulted in assaults and even murder. I have participated in a few boards, where I saw it happening and where it increased to an insane, mad frenzy (years ago, the very first "big brother" tv show boards had fighting groups, which were something to behold... one fray resulted in a shooting between members of opposing boards). On smaller boards, the sociology of the fighting factions can be tracked, until you can often observe the "tipping point" at which a board has been entirely taken over by a group with special interests or bias or prejudice (much like these Kimmer threads), where no discussion or dissent is allowed unless a poster agrees with the majority (anyone else is shouted down). That's why people who are interested in real dialog, which actually explores a topic, will soon leave that kind of environment to find more fertile territory for their intellectual exercise. There are numerous examples of these board "coup 'd etats" taking place and most of them result in boards being closed or becoming merely ongoing chat threads (almost always characterized by frequent one or two line postings) with posters getting meaner and more spiteful about the groups' common enemies (it's always nice if there are warring boards).

I had spent some time over the past few years posting a bit on the Natalee Holloway case. I always like to take the "innocent until proven guilty" stance and argue against the "wild west, hang 'em high, neck-tie party" crowd, who believe in punishment for anyone merely accused of a crime. I first posted on ScaredMonkeys site, until it became one of those places dedicated to a single belief, where dissent wasn't permitted. I then started my own dot com info site called Scrux and had a discussion board there, which was open to any view... but, eventually I closed that board (even though at the time it had 1000 visitors a day), when it started showing those signs of "group takeover." I didn't want to fool with that drama. But through all of this, I have continued to puzzle over the dynamics of forums and why they all seem to go bad eventually. This is what was so interesting to me about the Kimkins scandal... isn't so much the fraud or the phony pictures and testimonials or even the lawsuit per se, but instead, how it was created through a forum (lowcarbfriends) by a prolific poster (19,000 of 'em) and then spun off as a commercial enterprise, which then used as its own kernel, a forum, finally experiencing its eventual internal come-apart, because of poor administration in how to deal with that same old thing, "those who didn't agree." Then, we have the offended ones banding together here on lowcarbfriends with their common bond of revenge and a kind of a prairie justice mentality which, as I read the threads, appeared to have a lot in common with the distorted logic of those "high 'em high" crowds, which I have seen many times before.

So, I was motivated to study the case, gathering all the facts I could from a neutral viewpoint and then evaluating all I found with an open mind to see if my analysis of it would bear any contrast to prevailing views. I really wasn't concerned whether what I discovered or reasoned would be a contrary position when I was done or if I would be marching in step with the crowd. I was only interested in my honest take on all I would consider about the circumstances of the situation. Therefore, my postings have primarily been done as an exercise to see, if, in spite of the resolute commonalty of a group's closed mindedness, whether they might be communicatively responsive to an new, fresh view from an outsider. What I have posted... has been the steps in that exploration.

Could all this curiosity result in a book someday on this peculiar phenomenon of the dynamics of internet forums? Maybe. I have certainly kicked around the book idea and I am collecting all my musings on the subject (covering about five of these board situations from a six year period)... just really as a hobby (I have other writing chores) and maybe someday it will be a book. I don't know....might just be too boring to publish.
__________________

...what I "heard"

Bueller...Bueller??

Mariasol · 04-09-2008, 05:25 AM

Quote:

From the Great Orator....
Well, like my first post on this thread said... I was intrigued when I first saw a video on one of the tube sites about the Kimkins fiasco and so, I began doing some Google searches.

As MomToEli said, you were involved in this drama from the start (early June 2007) and posted on a thread in another forum where the fake pictures were discussed. There was no video at that time.

jeanessa · 04-09-2008, 05:45 AM

Sam said this: But, it was the behind the scenes story of the campaign, being engineered by disgruntled internet forum posters, which struck a harmonic chord with me, because I have seen this phenomenon before (in many other forum situations) and I have studied the strange dynamics of similarly bizarre sequences of forum events for years. I have been posting on boards since the seventies (beginning on the Commodore 64, using Compuserve, which was like a forerunner to the internet and today's bulletin boards) and from way back then, I have ofttimes explored very similar forum situations, where strange and often unusually intense relationships form between people (who are actually geographically distant strangers to each other) anonymously hiding behind unique posting pseudonyms, but where behind the scenes plots and "take over," as well as, "take down" plans unfold and where loyalties are broken and revenge is sought. Hatred often builds to such very intense levels it sometimes has even resulted in assaults and even murder. I have participated in a few boards, where I saw it happening and where it increased to an insane, mad frenzy (years ago, the very first "big brother" tv show boards had fighting groups, which were something to behold... one fray resulted in a shooting between members of opposing boards). On smaller boards, the sociology of the fighting factions can be tracked, until you can often observe the "tipping point" at which a board has been entirely taken over by a group with special interests or bias or prejudice (much like these Kimmer threads), where no discussion or dissent is allowed unless a poster agrees with the majority (anyone else is shouted down).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you're looking at this from a sociological perspective, then you have sullied the scientific method by actively participating in the forum. If we are your scientific experiment, then the posts you have made here have been designed sort of as a test to see how we would react, am I correct? You are the independent variable, we are the dependent variable...and where is your control group?

Also, researcher bias may be a factor here due to the fact that you have already formed an untested hypothesis that mob mentality rules when these groups of forum posters come together.

Additionally, you have left a gaping hole the size of Texas in your development of this study, by not taking into consideration another independent variable at play, the actuality of perceived wrongs. For instance, you compare a television show audience forum to people who were cheated out of their money and, some, their health.

Before (and if) you write your book, you might want to take these things into consideration.

Tooter · 04-09-2008, 05:52 AM

Sam, this line from your post stands out to me...

"I discovered that behind a simple fraudulent sales promotion was a internet posting vendetta (now that's not necessarily a bad thing)."

I assure you Sam, there was nothing "Simple" about it. It was rather complex and was 8 years in the making. 8 years of lies, manipulation and using her Knowledge of the internet, human nature, message boards (and how they work)...To work to her advantage. Your comment on other boards and their fighting? That's how her fraud and lies lasted this long without being exposed. No one was allowed to confront her here, for fear that, that very thing would happen. So you see, she not only lied and manipulated posters and readers on here...but she also did it to this site, the owner and the mods that tried to make this a "fight free" place. She knew that fighting wouldn't be tolerated, and so if someone tried to expose her...Their posts were deleted, they were warned "never to do it again" and or they could be banned for it.

So, you see, Sam...There was nothing simple about it.

You also made a comment about her using Hired Models. Umm...She didn't hire them, she stole pictures from the Russian bride site.

She didn't just "use" fake stories to promote "A Truth" about her plan. She totally invented stories and also invented people to post on her site. The truth about her plan? She did steal from atkins, stillmans and some others. The point wasn't just that she stole from them (and they were invented by Doctors) it's that she invented a new plan (that took parts from other plans) and was totally dangerous. It wasn't the "Best" from those plans...it was pieces that had no safety guards and had no medical back up. NOW...Combine that with the fact that no one could "Question" or expose her (without being banned from here or her site) and the fact that there truly was/is a cult mentality that she is promoting...and you have a major mess on your hands.

I'm not being snarky with you. It's just that you truly are a Day late and a dollar short, to try and have this debate right now. It has SOooooooo gone past all that.

There has been too much uncovered and still seems to be more. It's not a simple Fraudulent sales promotion. I haven't and can't touch on all the other stuff...Nor could you have read or researched all that by now, and from the sounds of your posts...You seem clueless about the other stuff. You would have had to have been here since the beginning. From the sounds of your posts, you just took a "Concept" and wanted to play devils advocate.

jeanessa · 04-09-2008, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tooter

Sam, this line from your post stands out to me...

"I discovered that behind a simple fraudulent sales promotion was a internet posting vendetta (now that's not necessarily a bad thing)."

I assure you Sam, there was nothing "Simple" about it. It was rather complex and was 8 years in the making. 8 years of lies, manipulation and using her Knowledge of the internet, human nature, message boards (and how they work)...To work to her advantage. Your comment on other boards and their fighting? That's how her fraud and lies lasted this long without being exposed. No one was allowed to confront her here, for fear that, that very thing would happen. So you see, she not only lied and manipulated posters and readers on here...but she also did it to this site, the owner and the mods that tried to make this a "fight free" place. She knew that fighting wouldn't be tolerated, and so if someone tried to expose her...Their posts were deleted, they were warned "never to do it again" and or they could be banned for it.

So, you see, Sam...There was nothing simple about it.

You also made a comment about her using Hired Models. Umm...She didn't hire them, she stole pictures from the Russian bride site.

She didn't just "use" fake stories to promote "A Truth" about her plan. She totally invented stories and also invented people to post on her site. The truth about her plan? She did steal from atkins, stillmans and some others. The point wasn't just that she stole from them (and they were invented by Doctors) it's that she invented a new plan (that took parts from other plans) and was totally dangerous. It wasn't the "Best" from those plans...it was pieces that had no safety guards and had no medical back up. NOW...Combine that with the fact that no one could "Question" or expose her (without being banned from here or her site) and the fact that there truly was/is a cult mentality that she is promoting...and you have a major mess on your hands.

I'm not being snarky with you. It's just that you truly are a Day late and a dollar short, to try and have this debate right now. It has SOooooooo gone past all that.

There has been too much uncovered and still seems to be more. It's not a simple Fraudulent sales promotion. I haven't and can't touch on all the other stuff...Nor could you have read or researched all that by now, and from the sounds of your posts...You seem clueless about the other stuff. You would have had to have been here since the beginning. From the sounds of your posts, you just took a "Concept" and wanted to play devils advocate.

Tooter,

You can go around and around with Sam, but he sees things differently. While every point you make strikes home with me, Sam truly does see KK as a simple fraud, unworthy of sustained scrutiny and, possibly, unwarranted for litigation.

He's more focused on why we are here, why we agree and why we continue to post.

You see, he didn't lose his money, his hair, his good health, his metabolism, his trust in the goodness of others, or his trust in himself and it doesn't seem to particularly bother him that some of us did.

MomToEli · 04-09-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NancyElle

I couldn't have said it better.

I'm still curious as to what Mr. Redman's "payoff" is. Clearly, alot of time and analysis has been given to this issue, by Mr. Redman. However, I still am asking, "why"?

This case regarding Heidi Diaz is certainly not frought with as much controversy, mystery and intrigue as that of Natalee Holloway and Aruba.....

Do you suppose Mr. Redman thinks the story is worthy of a book or mini series????

So much rhetoric, effort, thought, time, carefully structured debate and legal ramblings, must be posted for a reason........

I'm just asking.........

And don't miss the fact that Sam is culling all of his ruminations and our responses over on his own board. Sort of a diary, if you would.

I fully suspect that aspirations of a book are involved. Nothing wrong with that, really. We've batted the idea around here many times before.

samredman · 04-09-2008, 06:06 AM

Nancy Elle queried:

Quote:

Do you suppose Mr. Redman thinks the story is worthy of a book or mini series????

There indeed might be a book in this, but maybe one best written not solely by me (my delivery "could often use some work"). There are some very impressive writers pondering this subject. Some of the blogs I have studied have shown me such talent that I think perhaps there could be a compilation effort made, as long as it had a good editor, who would keep it objective, encouraging all facets (sides?) of the subject to be explored. I was particularly impressed with the writing on the "grilled cheese sandwich" site (that gal is a writer). Another which caught my eye was the "prudentia" blog (as well several of the others; as the saying goes, "too numerous to mention").

And, no, I haven't spent much time on this... although it might appear that way to people who don't research and write for a living (and to those who haven't done it for 45 years). As hard as it is for some to imagine, I have actually composed and delivered hundreds of pages on other subjects (I do a lot of "white paper" work) since I did the first post on this. I write songs too... (go to my noaccountman.com site, if you want to hear a few of my hillbilly tunes) Sometimes when I am taking a break from my actual work (in classic "busman's holiday" fashion), I look at various subjects which interest me (for example, a murder of three members of a rural family in Texas also caught my eye and I have cranked out an occasional paragraph on that topic... that one is definitely worthy of a book, but again, maybe not by me).

LoraJR72 · 04-09-2008, 06:46 AM

Marking my spot!

Tooter · 04-09-2008, 07:04 AM

Jeanessa, you are right...as usual.

I just don't "get" this Sam guy. I guess I won't even try. Him also mentioning a book? You know, we have all joked about a book or Movie on here...But the actual thought of someone wanting to make money off this.

That just reminds me so much of Heidi and her coldness.

It's not just a story. It's not just a debate. It's real and has hurt alot of real people.

Magicsmom · 04-09-2008, 07:17 AM

First things first - Nancy Elle, is that Jackson Browne I see in your avatar?

Sam, I think you underestimate your own writing abilities. I am quite impressed with your writing, even if I disagree with you. It does interest me why you care what we do and why you want to take your time to try to convince us we are wrong. For the record, I'm not gunning for the chicken lady either. You do err by assuming we all think alike. Just because we agree on Heidi Diaz does not mean this is a cohesive group by any means. We are cohesive in our effort to expose the fraud known as Kimmer and to put her out of business, but that's where the similarity ends.

Mayberryfan · 04-09-2008, 07:20 AM

If an insider, someone who's actually been involved here with Kimmer or as a former member of KK were to write a book, then I wouldn't have a problem with that. My problem would be someone as an outsider writing about the deceptions, lies and manipulations without having a personal understanding of what it's all about. (yes, I ended a sentence with a preposition! :P)

I think it would take someone with the skills of Gary Taubes to be able to accurately and fully tell the story of Heidi Diaz. Unfortunately for us, I don't think he was ever a member at KK.

NancyElle · 04-09-2008, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magicsmom

First things first - Nancy Elle, is that Jackson Browne I see in your avatar?

YES!

04-09-2008, 07:17 AM	#19
Magicsmom Committed to Succeed Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Emerald City Posts: 14,589 Gallery: Magicsmom Stats: 282/212.5/140 WOE: Seeing a nutritionist who believes in low carb! Start Date: Off & On (mostly on) since January 2004	First things first - Nancy Elle, is that Jackson Browne I see in your avatar? Sam, I think you underestimate your own writing abilities. I am quite impressed with your writing, even if I disagree with you. It does interest me why you care what we do and why you want to take your time to try to convince us we are wrong. For the record, I'm not gunning for the chicken lady either. You do err by assuming we all think alike. Just because we agree on Heidi Diaz does not mean this is a cohesive group by any means. We are cohesive in our effort to expose the fraud known as Kimmer and to put her out of business, but that's where the similarity ends. __________________ Terry Member of The Sayonara Carbonara Challenge *Bona Fide Famous* B.A.N.T.A. Babe Hell hath no fury like a duck scorned! QUACK! Visit my blog for a primer on the Kimkins saga Kimkins members in San Diego County, click here! We need YOU!**

04-08-2008, 10:06 PM	#1
Tom Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 4,760 Blog Entries: 2 Gallery: Tom	Why the fascination with Kimmer? #16 Welcome to: Why the fascination with Kimmer? #16 As a reminder, please be respectful of dissenting views and please avoid personal insults of others - including the subject of these threads. Thank you. Why the fascination with Kimmer? Why the fascination with Kimmer? #2 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #3 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #4 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #5 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #6 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #7 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #8 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #9 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #10 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #11 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #12 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #13 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #14 Why the fascination with Kimmer? #15

04-08-2008, 10:08 PM	#2
tiggerr Way too much time on my hands! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Dutch transplant in La-la-land aka as California Posts: 15,042 Gallery: tiggerr Stats: Two Half Marathons down, one to go WOE: Back on the LC track. Start Date: May,2003	#16, wow. Thank you Tom for letting this go past the first post.

04-08-2008, 10:14 PM	#3
justme08 Junior LCF Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 6 Gallery: justme08	Sad, I am new and wanted to be first! I will have to try harder.

04-08-2008, 10:17 PM	#4
SMP MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 1,965 Gallery: SMP Stats: 300/220/160 WOE: Atkins Start Date: Nov 2000	Sam, I don't know whether to be offended or alarmed by your assessment of the group character of the ducks. If you read my posts, you'll see that I support the ducks, yet don't consider myself one. I occasionally point out a particularly blatantly mean-spirited post; voice my disagreement with the party line if it strikes me as being out in left field. I've also been guilty of rank speculation, which sometimes has also been out in left field, and am sometimes surprised when the ducks, who see Heidi under every overturned rock, correctly identify new contrary posters as Heidi Sockettes. (Relax, Sam, I never thought you were a Heidi persona - you use more big words than she does, and are a lot less mean in the long run.) And I don't have the Magic Chicken Lady in my crosshairs! Fortunately, Sam, this is merely ONE THREAD among the 1000's on the LCF forum, and the admins keep a good grip of the reins on the others. This is actually a time-limited (when Heidi gets the time) forum dedicated to the exposure of a poster who developed her following here. She is our Changeling Child, and we feel a certain amount of responsibility to control the damage she is doing. Once we have discharged that responsibility to the extent legally possible, our mission is done and this thread will be locked. And the Ducks will fade into oblivion, just like those quarrelsome groups you described, but with an abiding sense of accomplishment. Yay Ducks! __________________ When I have nothing to say, do I still have to speak?

04-08-2008, 10:17 PM	#5
Brimstone Junior LCF Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 41 Gallery: Brimstone WOE: Skaldeman	16 is my favourite number

04-09-2008, 03:46 AM	#8
Pam in TX Very Gabby LCF Member!!! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 3,835 Gallery: Pam in TX Stats: 292/212/??? WOE: LowCarb Start Date: June 21, 2004	#16 and still going strong...............

04-09-2008, 04:20 AM	#9
Mayberryfan MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 1,365 Gallery: Mayberryfan Stats: 255/204/150 WOE: PPLP Start Date: June 6, 2007	Sweet 16! It is sweet indeed! Thanks Tom, Cheri, et., al. for letting us continue this battle for justice. We may disagree at times, we may go off on little tangents, and we may have - as Barney Fife would say - interlopers who deserve to get the BIG FREEZE, but our purpose is pretty clear. That is to find enough evidence and supply it to the authorities so that Heidi has to face the music. We are all about doing thing in a legal, above-board manner. Oh, and sometimes, we like to have a little fun too. Let's make it a great Wednesday ladies! We have much to proud of and to celebrate. __________________ _________________ "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have." - Thomas Jefferson .......... http://mayberryfan.blogspot.com/

04-09-2008, 04:50 AM	#10
beachfires Senior LCF Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Schenectady, NY Posts: 747 Gallery: beachfires Stats: 194/157/145 WOE: Atkins...modified to fit my life :o) Start Date: 1/5/04	From the Great Orator.... Well, like my first post on this thread said... I was intrigued when I first saw a video on one of the tube sites about the Kimkins fiasco and so, I began doing some Google searches. The story became more fascinating when I discovered that behind a simple fraudulent sales promotion was a internet posting vendetta (now that's not necessarily a bad thing). If those conducting a vendetta are truly on the side of righteousness, I offer no condemnation. As Barry Goldwater said, "Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." But, it was the behind the scenes story of the campaign, being engineered by disgruntled internet forum posters, which struck a harmonic chord with me, because I have seen this phenomenon before (in many other forum situations) and I have studied the strange dynamics of similarly bizarre sequences of forum events for years. I have been posting on boards since the seventies (beginning on the Commodore 64, using Compuserve, which was like a forerunner to the internet and today's bulletin boards) and from way back then, I have ofttimes explored very similar forum situations, where strange and often unusually intense relationships form between people (who are actually geographically distant strangers to each other) anonymously hiding behind unique posting pseudonyms, but where behind the scenes plots and "take over," as well as, "take down" plans unfold and where loyalties are broken and revenge is sought. Hatred often builds to such very intense levels it sometimes has even resulted in assaults and even murder. I have participated in a few boards, where I saw it happening and where it increased to an insane, mad frenzy (years ago, the very first "big brother" tv show boards had fighting groups, which were something to behold... one fray resulted in a shooting between members of opposing boards). On smaller boards, the sociology of the fighting factions can be tracked, until you can often observe the "tipping point" at which a board has been entirely taken over by a group with special interests or bias or prejudice (much like these Kimmer threads), where no discussion or dissent is allowed unless a poster agrees with the majority (anyone else is shouted down). That's why people who are interested in real dialog, which actually explores a topic, will soon leave that kind of environment to find more fertile territory for their intellectual exercise. There are numerous examples of these board "coup 'd etats" taking place and most of them result in boards being closed or becoming merely ongoing chat threads (almost always characterized by frequent one or two line postings) with posters getting meaner and more spiteful about the groups' common enemies (it's always nice if there are warring boards). I had spent some time over the past few years posting a bit on the Natalee Holloway case. I always like to take the "innocent until proven guilty" stance and argue against the "wild west, hang 'em high, neck-tie party" crowd, who believe in punishment for anyone merely accused of a crime. I first posted on ScaredMonkeys site, until it became one of those places dedicated to a single belief, where dissent wasn't permitted. I then started my own dot com info site called Scrux and had a discussion board there, which was open to any view... but, eventually I closed that board (even though at the time it had 1000 visitors a day), when it started showing those signs of "group takeover." I didn't want to fool with that drama. But through all of this, I have continued to puzzle over the dynamics of forums and why they all seem to go bad eventually. This is what was so interesting to me about the Kimkins scandal... isn't so much the fraud or the phony pictures and testimonials or even the lawsuit per se, but instead, how it was created through a forum (lowcarbfriends) by a prolific poster (19,000 of 'em) and then spun off as a commercial enterprise, which then used as its own kernel, a forum, finally experiencing its eventual internal come-apart, because of poor administration in how to deal with that same old thing, "those who didn't agree." Then, we have the offended ones banding together here on lowcarbfriends with their common bond of revenge and a kind of a prairie justice mentality which, as I read the threads, appeared to have a lot in common with the distorted logic of those "high 'em high" crowds, which I have seen many times before. So, I was motivated to study the case, gathering all the facts I could from a neutral viewpoint and then evaluating all I found with an open mind to see if my analysis of it would bear any contrast to prevailing views. I really wasn't concerned whether what I discovered or reasoned would be a contrary position when I was done or if I would be marching in step with the crowd. I was only interested in my honest take on all I would consider about the circumstances of the situation. Therefore, my postings have primarily been done as an exercise to see, if, in spite of the resolute commonalty of a group's closed mindedness, whether they might be communicatively responsive to an new, fresh view from an outsider. What I have posted... has been the steps in that exploration. Could all this curiosity result in a book someday on this peculiar phenomenon of the dynamics of internet forums? Maybe. I have certainly kicked around the book idea and I am collecting all my musings on the subject (covering about five of these board situations from a six year period)... just really as a hobby (I have other writing chores) and maybe someday it will be a book. I don't know....might just be too boring to publish. __________________ ...what I "heard" Bueller...Bueller?? __________________ We are not the architects of life's path, merely the travelers. Life is what you get...make it what you want ------------------------------------------------ Sandi

04-09-2008, 05:45 AM	#12
jeanessa Senior LCF Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: The Great Lakes State Posts: 567 Gallery: jeanessa Stats: 289.6/289.6/??? WOE: Atkins Start Date: 4/19/08	Sam said this: But, it was the behind the scenes story of the campaign, being engineered by disgruntled internet forum posters, which struck a harmonic chord with me, because I have seen this phenomenon before (in many other forum situations) and I have studied the strange dynamics of similarly bizarre sequences of forum events for years. I have been posting on boards since the seventies (beginning on the Commodore 64, using Compuserve, which was like a forerunner to the internet and today's bulletin boards) and from way back then, I have ofttimes explored very similar forum situations, where strange and often unusually intense relationships form between people (who are actually geographically distant strangers to each other) anonymously hiding behind unique posting pseudonyms, but where behind the scenes plots and "take over," as well as, "take down" plans unfold and where loyalties are broken and revenge is sought. Hatred often builds to such very intense levels it sometimes has even resulted in assaults and even murder. I have participated in a few boards, where I saw it happening and where it increased to an insane, mad frenzy (years ago, the very first "big brother" tv show boards had fighting groups, which were something to behold... one fray resulted in a shooting between members of opposing boards). On smaller boards, the sociology of the fighting factions can be tracked, until you can often observe the "tipping point" at which a board has been entirely taken over by a group with special interests or bias or prejudice (much like these Kimmer threads), where no discussion or dissent is allowed unless a poster agrees with the majority (anyone else is shouted down). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you're looking at this from a sociological perspective, then you have sullied the scientific method by actively participating in the forum. If we are your scientific experiment, then the posts you have made here have been designed sort of as a test to see how we would react, am I correct? You are the independent variable, we are the dependent variable...and where is your control group? Also, researcher bias may be a factor here due to the fact that you have already formed an untested hypothesis that mob mentality rules when these groups of forum posters come together. Additionally, you have left a gaping hole the size of Texas in your development of this study, by not taking into consideration another independent variable at play, the actuality of perceived wrongs. For instance, you compare a television show audience forum to people who were cheated out of their money and, some, their health. Before (and if) you write your book, you might want to take these things into consideration. __________________ My Personal Blog Big is Beautiful Join the fight to stop the fraud! Kimkins Lawsuit Once you go quack, you never go back!

04-09-2008, 05:52 AM	#13
Tooter Big Yapper!!!! Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,392 Gallery: Tooter Stats: 5' 6" and 128 lbs	Sam, this line from your post stands out to me... "I discovered that behind a simple fraudulent sales promotion was a internet posting vendetta (now that's not necessarily a bad thing)." I assure you Sam, there was nothing "Simple" about it. It was rather complex and was 8 years in the making. 8 years of lies, manipulation and using her Knowledge of the internet, human nature, message boards (and how they work)...To work to her advantage. Your comment on other boards and their fighting? That's how her fraud and lies lasted this long without being exposed. No one was allowed to confront her here, for fear that, that very thing would happen. So you see, she not only lied and manipulated posters and readers on here...but she also did it to this site, the owner and the mods that tried to make this a "fight free" place. She knew that fighting wouldn't be tolerated, and so if someone tried to expose her...Their posts were deleted, they were warned "never to do it again" and or they could be banned for it. So, you see, Sam...There was nothing simple about it. You also made a comment about her using Hired Models. Umm...She didn't hire them, she stole pictures from the Russian bride site. She didn't just "use" fake stories to promote "A Truth" about her plan. She totally invented stories and also invented people to post on her site. The truth about her plan? She did steal from atkins, stillmans and some others. The point wasn't just that she stole from them (and they were invented by Doctors) it's that she invented a new plan (that took parts from other plans) and was totally dangerous. It wasn't the "Best" from those plans...it was pieces that had no safety guards and had no medical back up. NOW...Combine that with the fact that no one could "Question" or expose her (without being banned from here or her site) and the fact that there truly was/is a cult mentality that she is promoting...and you have a major mess on your hands. I'm not being snarky with you. It's just that you truly are a Day late and a dollar short, to try and have this debate right now. It has SOooooooo gone past all that. There has been too much uncovered and still seems to be more. It's not a simple Fraudulent sales promotion. I haven't and can't touch on all the other stuff...Nor could you have read or researched all that by now, and from the sounds of your posts...You seem clueless about the other stuff. You would have had to have been here since the beginning. From the sounds of your posts, you just took a "Concept" and wanted to play devils advocate. __________________ "It shouldn't be a RACE to get thin. It should be a Journey to good health."

04-09-2008, 06:46 AM	#17
LoraJR72 MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Fever Pitch City Posts: 2,343 Gallery: LoraJR72 Stats: 140.8/???/130 - 5'6" WOE: LC - Moderate Carb Cycling Start Date: Right here...right now!	Marking my spot!

04-09-2008, 07:04 AM	#18
Tooter Big Yapper!!!! Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 8,392 Gallery: Tooter Stats: 5' 6" and 128 lbs	Jeanessa, you are right...as usual. I just don't "get" this Sam guy. I guess I won't even try. Him also mentioning a book? You know, we have all joked about a book or Movie on here...But the actual thought of someone wanting to make money off this. That just reminds me so much of Heidi and her coldness. It's not just a story. It's not just a debate. It's real and has hurt alot of real people.

04-09-2008, 07:20 AM	#20
Mayberryfan MAJOR LCF POSTER! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 1,365 Gallery: Mayberryfan Stats: 255/204/150 WOE: PPLP Start Date: June 6, 2007	If an insider, someone who's actually been involved here with Kimmer or as a former member of KK were to write a book, then I wouldn't have a problem with that. My problem would be someone as an outsider writing about the deceptions, lies and manipulations without having a personal understanding of what it's all about. (yes, I ended a sentence with a preposition! :P) I think it would take someone with the skills of Gary Taubes to be able to accurately and fully tell the story of Heidi Diaz. Unfortunately for us, I don't think he was ever a member at KK.